Featured The Sovereignty of God in the life of Joseph

He did give us, as men, a free will,
and Adam then used that free will to listen to his wife and freely disobey the Lord and willfully eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

The consequences of Adam's action were very quickly realized...
Sin was passed to all of us ( Romans 5:12-19 ).

The Lord goes on to tell us what came to pass after Adam sinned and each succeeding generation was given up and given over to sin...
Read Romans 1:18-32 carefully, and then tell me where our free will really is;
Biased against God, or unbiased towards God?

Then reading Romans 2:1-11, can you not see where we are with respect sin and how our objectivity has now changed, to the point that we cannot even judge rightly anymore?
Finally, based on Romans 3:1-18, where exactly are we with respect to our will...

Again,
Biased against God, or unbiased towards Him?

" What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 and the way of peace have they not known:
18 there is no fear of God before their eyes." ( Romans 3:10-18 ).

I find it strange that anyone who deeply studies the Bible and names the name of Christ would ( apparently ) not find the above so very significant, and instead state that we as rebellious sinners have any kind of desire towards the Lord, except as the Lord Jesus Himself has said:

" And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." ( John 3:19-20 ).

We hate the light, neither do we come to the light, lest our deeds should be reproved ( or reprimanded ) by the Lord.

Based on the above stated, where would you say that man's will currently is...
In the gutter and firmly against God and His Son, or is it somehow neutral and all that it really needs is a shove in the right direction?

 

To me, Jonathan Edwards was a "Calvinistic" philosopher who sometimes spoke in terms of "logic" and human reasoning.
While he may have been a "Calvinist" in the broadest and religious sense, I do not believe that he ever really saw the truth of the Scriptures that teach that God is both sovereign over His creation and we as men are fully responsible for our actions.

In other words, for Jonathan Edwards to state that “The eternal decree is the cause of the necessary futurition of evil acts, for the acts inevitably follow on the decree." and, "If God by his decree did force men’s wills, and so necessitate them to be vicious and wicked, then he might justly be called the Author of Sin."...

...tells me that either the second quote is misunderstood ( in that Edwards actually meant that God is not the author of sin ), or Edwards himself never really did understand ( or fully believe ) that not only does God rule from on high, turn the hearts of men to do His will, and both cause and allow men to do things according to that will, but he also never really believed that in the entire process, God never causes a man or woman to actually sin:

" Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." ( James 1:13-15 ).


However, I myself am not above believing that the Lord can and does maneuver a person ( or allow a person to be maneuvered ) into a certain set of circumstances ( like the Fall of Adam and Eve ), knowing full well what will happen when that person is subjected to them and is allowed their choice.
He is the Lord, and turns the hearts of men whithersoever way He will ( Genesis 20:6, Proverbs 16:9, Proverbs 21:1 ), especially His people ( Psalms 37:23, Philippians 2:13 ).

That said, just because a person seems "Calvinistic", does not mean:

A) They agree with everything that John Calvin or his followers taught and believed.
B) They gain their understanding of the Scriptures through books about theology, other writings from prominent "Calvinists", or adhere to every teaching of "Calvinistic" preachers and teachers without checking them, carefully, against the word of God.
C) Approve of John Calvin's actions at Geneva, anymore than the actions of an Institution that teaches salvation in a way almost totally the opposite of "Calvinism".

 

I agree and well said, Steve.
God works all things according to the counsel of His own will ( Ephesians 1:11 ).

Joseph's life, as one of God's elect, was certainly and firmly in His hand...
To not only protect Joseph, but to orchestrate ( whether by allowance or other means ) things in his life that would result in His glory and honor, as well as His prophetic purposes...

Including, far down the line, the birth of His Son by Mary ( Matthew 1:1-16, Luke 3:23-38 ).

 

Austin so now your disowning Calvin. Interesting. You don't want to accept any thing that you Calvinists insist upon. You want a God that controls everything but then try to dodge the truth and say that your version of God can't be held responsible for evil, WHY, because the WCF & LBCF say so. You Calvinists really need to learn how logic works.

You really should learn the difference between God in control {non-calvinism} and controlling {calvinism} Your version of God has to have a controlling power over everything or for calvinists He just can't be God. So sad.

 

I really would continue this conversation so that perhaps some of you would come to see the truth of scripture. Then I remembered that you are all Calvinists and believe that determinism is true so you really can not think other than what God has programed you to think. So I will just have to leave it in His hands and perhaps He will see fit to bring you to the point that you finally understand that your determinism is wrong.

 

What scripture?

 

Sigh. You realize that what I believe, I read in the Bible. I have only read a couple quotes from John Calvin.
It is you who is using John Calvin as your crutch for rejecting what the Bible teaches.

 

I once believed as you appear to, but time and study in God's word changed that for me over the course of the last 18 years.
It's been a long time since I thought in terms of God loving everyone and salvation ultimately being up to men to decide for themselves.

I was taught this in the IFB and IB circles that I had been part of since 1978,
when I first heard the preaching of God's words from a pulpit and believed them...

But once I saw what the Bible had to say about election in 2003, that changed everything for me.

I was "programmed" by His words, sir, not by John Calvin's ( or other's ) theology.
I saw the things I've seen strictly by reading and believing the Scriptures...
Nothing more than what is written on the pages.

Each and every precious word...
Whether or not it "sits well" with me, His word is truth and there is much of it that sobers me and places me on my face before Him.

I've come to realize that He is the Lord, the great "I AM that I AM", and does as He wills in the armies of Heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth.
None can stay His hand, or say to Him, "what are you doing?" ( Daniel 4:35 ).

 

In my opinion, that is the only thing that you can do.

As for "determinism" ( it's not mine, but His ) as you call it?
He does whatever He wants, whenever He wants.
It is all throughout the Scriptures, and I call it "doing things according to His will and determinate counsel":

Genesis 20:6 <------ The Lord tells Abimelech him why he did not take Sarah in the integrity of his heart...Because the Lord withheld Abimelech from sinning against Him, and did not permit him to sin against Him with Sarah.
Exodus 33:19. <---- God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.
Isaiah 10. <------ God sent Assyria against Jerusalem, and then punished the Assyrian king for his pride after he'd done it.
Isaiah 14:24.
Isaiah 37:36.
Daniel 4:35.
Psalms 65:4.
Matthew 11:25-27.
Matthew 13:10-17.
Matthew 16:13-17.
John 6:65.
John 10:28-29.
John 15:1-2.
John 17:2. <----- God gives His Son power over all flesh, so that He should give eternal life to exactly as many as were given to Him by His Father.
Acts of the Apostles 2:17-20.
Acts of the Apostles 2:23. <----- There's that "determinate counsel" I was referring to. Is this not evident to you by simply believing the words, as they are written?
Acts of the Apostles 2:39.
Acts of the Apostles 2:47.
Acts of the Apostles 4:26-28.
Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
Romans 8:29-30,
Romans 9:13-24. <--- God loved Jacob and hated Esau. He makes vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy...allowing one to fit themselves for their own destruction, and the other He prepares before-hand for His glory and grace.
Romans 11:1-8. <----- He elects some of Israel according to His grace, and blinds the rest because of their sins. See John 12:37-41.
1 Corinthians 1:19-31.
Ephesians 1:3-11.
1 Peter 2:8.
2 Peter 2:12.

There are many others that we could bring to the table and examine, if you are so inclined.
But I have a feeling that ( for right now ) your mind is set against anything that shows the Lord doing something independently of men and that involves us as men...
Especially saving us apart from our own desires and efforts.

I do hope that I am wrong, sir, and that you will receive His words with all readiness of mind someday.



May the Lord bless you with wisdom and grace,
as well as good health and long life.

 

Dave I read through all the verses that you posted and while you feel they support you I would have to say no not so much. You seem to think I am questioning the sovereignty of God. Wrong. I am questioning the Calvinist view of the sovereignty of God. I have stated before that God has a plan for His creation and it will be carried out. God is sovereign after all.

For people that say God is in total charge of everything you always want to limit what He can do. Question, who are you O man to tell God that He can't allow for free will? And just in case you misunderstand what I mean I do not mean compatibilism. Compatibilism / soft determinism is really no different then hard determinism.

The reality is that whatever condition Calvinists claim God is saving humanity from, their theology necessitates that God caused it. If it is true, like the Calvinists claim, that God rescues a group of pre-selected people from the tortures of hell, it is only because God “ordained” that humanity would be damned in the first place.

Calvinist routinely use the idea of God “saving some” from hell as the pinnacle of their argument for God’s redemptive glory. “Everyone should go to hell for their sins” Calvinists routinely shout. But, this is only just if human beings are responsible for their sin. In Calvinism’s conception of why people go to hell, it isn’t because they have sinned and must suffer the consequences. No, it is because God “ordained” that they would sin and suffer the consequences before God brought creation into being. If any theology “robs God of glory,” it is the Calvinist Divine Determinism that necessitates His total control of all things that happen. Good or Bad

God has given man the free will to make the choice to trust or reject the gospel message of Christ Jesus.
The bible tells us Christ died to take away the sin of the world (Joh_1:29), and He came to call sinners to repentance (Luk_5:32) and since all are sinners (Rom_3:23) and He died for all (2Co_5:14-15; 1Ti_2:6; 1Ti_4:10; 1Jn_2:2), and will draw all people to Himself (Joh_12:32) and those that believe will be saved (Joh_3:16) and those that reject the gospel will be lost. (Joh_3:18)

On the other hand if we follow the Calvinistic presumption, that Christ Jesus died only for the unconditionally elect, then all people without qualification are unconditionally elected unto faith and final salvation. In this, then, Calvinism promotes Universalism.

 

Is there a rogue molecule? If so, God is not Sovereign. If so God is not all powerful. If so, God is not all knowing.

To despise the determination of God upon all things is to despise the God of creation. Does Silverhair not realize what he is declaring about God when he despises God's determinative will?

 

God's opinion:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,
saith the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Isaiah 55:8-9

 

Austin you do like hyperbole. Just because I do not subscribe to the errant determinist view that you hold does not mean that I despise God. God has a plan for His creation and that plan will be carried through to completion. What is that plan, it is for the salvation of all those that will freely place their trust in Christ Jesus.

Why are you so unwilling to see the truth that your view of Gods' sovereignty would by necessity make God the author of all evil. "Is there a rogue molecule? If so, God is not Sovereign." If a molecule is under strict control of your version of God then what do you think man can do? By your own words you are really unable to make any real choices as they have all been made for you. Your determinism rules your life. You may think you have faith but how can you be sure, your version of God may have just determined you to think that way.

As I have said many many times God is sovereign but that does not require that He decrees every single action. It really is unfortunate that you would rather follow the WCF & LBCF instead of the bible.

Can you not see that the twisted view you present does not fit the character of God that we see in the bible.

Did you not read and understand what I posted before?
The bible tells us Christ died to take away the sin of the world (Joh 1:29), and He came to call sinners to repentance (Luk 5:32) and since all are sinners (Rom 3:23) and He died for all (2Co 5:14-15; 1Ti 2:6; 1Ti 4:10; 1Jn 2:2), and will draw all people to Himself (Joh 12:32) and those that believe will be saved (Joh_3:16; Rom 3:26) and those that reject the gospel will be lost. (Joh 3:18).

I pray that God will open your eyes to the truth of scripture.

 

Is there a rogue molecule? A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

If your eyes were open, you would see your contradiction and error in your own post.

You claim universalism then you make it limited. Why? Because in your world, humans are superior (sovereign) to God in the process of salvation.

 

YES because God does not have to meticulously control all thing to be sovereign.

 

In the bible we see that God has allowed for man to have the free will to make choices in regard to their salvation. You are just to blind or stubborn or both to see what is right in front of you.

Notice "and those that believe will be saved (Joh_3:16; Rom 3:26) and those that reject the gospel will be lost. (Joh 3:18)." Are you so caught up in your Calvinist view that you can not even read clear english?

Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 How will they preach unless they are sent?

By Calvinist logic
the person is saved before they call and
they call before they believe and
they believe before they hear the gospel and
they hear the gospel before it is presented and
the preacher presents the gospel before he is sent.

But note the order Paul describes here.

1) The saved are those who call on the name of the Lord.

2) They call because they believe.

3) They believe because they heard.

4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.

Working backwards, Gospel → Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation.

 

Then your god is not Sovereign. There are things he is unaware of and thus he is not all knowing. Because he is not all knowing, he is not all powerful. Your god, is not the God of the Bible.

 

Austin do you actually read or do you just react.

 

Have you heard of "call and response?" It's often associated with the African American church in the United States.
God chooses to call. Humans respond. Without the call, there is no response.
Paul shows us in Romans 1 that humans can observe God in nature, but they would not believe based upon what they observed.

Romans 1:19-23
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

This leads Paul to tell us in Romans 3 that no one seeks after God.

Romans 3:10-18
As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Paul then tells us about God's election and predestination in Romans 8 and 9.

Romans 9:8-24
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Which leads to Paul telling us that God must speak to a person before they can believe.

Romans 10:14-17
How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Silverhair, you cannot escape the fact that God must choose to save you. You cannot just "accept" a static invitation and thus impose upon God your will which causes him to save you. That thinking is false.
God must choose to save you, despite the fact you would have no part of Him. He breaks in to the enslavement of your own making and chooses to set you free and make you His child. That...is amazing grace.