Twin Truths: God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Responsibility

According to God's word, people are saved before they believe.

If one is chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world and predestinated to their adoption as children of God ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ),
and if one is God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to walk in good works ( Ephesians 2:10 ),
and if someone is foreknown and predestinated conformed to the image of Christ ( Romans 8:29-30 ),
and if someone is chosen to salvation through ( not by ) both sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ),
and if someone cannot come to Christ unless they were given to Him by His Father ( John 6:64-65 ),

Then yes, they are not only born saved, but locked into it from the moment God created them as a vessel of mercy ( Romans 9:22-24 )...
Because His works were finished from the foundation of the world ( Hebrews 4:3 ).

Acts of the Apostles 13:48 tells us that the reason people believe is because they are ordained to eternal life...
John 8:43-47 tells us that the reason people "hear" ( or receive ) God's words is because they are "of" ( by or from ) God.
John 10:26-27 tells us that the reason people do and do not believe is because they either are "of" His sheep, or they are not...

They will either hear His voice, or not, because they are either His sheep, or not.


Simply stated, salvation began, according to God's word, before the foundation of the world.
His decision to save someone ( and their being blessed and loved by Him ) is then transmitted to them via the preaching of the Gospel;
A Gospel that they will believe without having to "decide for or against it".

They will believe it because they are His.


There is no chance that one of God's elect will ever not come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:9 ),
and Christ will lose none of those that were given to him by His Father ( John 6:39 ).

 

Martin that is the problem it is not just Boettner that says this it is also in the Calvinist web sites that I gave you and they say that regeneration = born again. Now are you going to say that born again does not mean saved? And are you going to disagree with these calvinists also? If that is what you want to believe so be it but your running against the tide on this one.

These calvinist lights all say that you have to be born again before you can believe. And they equate regeneration with being born again in other words saved. So their saying that you have to be saved before you can believe. Which is not biblical.

You say regeneration precedes faith but don’t want to admit that for your calvinist lights regeneration = born again/saved

Let us hear how Calvinists explain it:

The question still remains: "Do I cooperate with God's grace before I am born again, or does the cooperation occur after?" Another way of asking this question is to ask if regeneration is monergistic or synergistic. Is it operative or cooperative? Is it effectual or dependent? ...A monergistic work is a work produced singly, by one person. ...At issue was this: Is regeneration a monergistic work of God or a synergistic work that requires cooperation between man and God? ...After a person is regenerated, that person cooperates by exercising faith and trust. R C Sproul Regeneration Precedes Faith

When Christ called to Lazarus to come out of the grave, Lazarus had no life in him so that he could hear, sit up, and emerge. There was not a flicker of life in him. If he was to be able to hear Jesus calling him and to go to Him, then Jesus would have to make him alive. Jesus resurrected him and then Lazarus could respond. [Similarly,] the unsaved, the unregenerate, is spiritually dead (Eph. 2). He is unable to ask for help unless God changes his heart of stone into a heart of flesh, and makes him alive spiritually (Eph. 2:5). Then, once he is born again, he can for the first time turn to Jesus, expressing sorrow for his sins and asking Jesus to save him (Palmer, Five Points, 18-19).

Abraham Kuyper observed that, prior to regeneration, a sinner ‘has all the passive properties belonging to a corpse … [Therefore] every effort to claim for the sinner the minutest co-operation in this first grace destroys the gospel, severs the artery of the Christian confession and is anti-scriptural in the highest degree.’ Like a spiritual corpse, he is unable to make a single move toward God, think a right thought about God, or even respond to God – unless God first brings this spiritually dead corpse to life (Boice and Ryken, Doctrines of Grace, 74).

Man is dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1). He cannot make himself new, or create new life in himself. He must be born of God. Then, with the new nature of God, he sees Christ for who he really is, and freely receives Christ for all that he is. The two acts (new birth and faith) are so closely connected that in experience we cannot distinguish them. God begets us anew and the first glimmer of life in the newborn child is faith (Piper, Five Points, 35).

The Reformed view … teaches that before a person can choose Christ … he must be born again … one does not first believe and then become reborn. … A cardinal doctrine of Reformed theology is the maxim, “Regeneration precedes faith” (Sproul, Chosen by God, 10, 72).

A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because has been regenerated (Pink, The Sovereignty of God). The Calvinist says that life must precede faith, and is logically the cause of faith. Faith did not cause the new birth, the new birth caused faith (Cole, “Which Comes First In Conversion–Life or Faith?”).

… Regeneration logically must initiate faith (MacArthur, Faith Works, 62).

Reformed theologians … place regeneration before faith, pointing out that the Holy Spirit must bring new life before the sinner can by God’s enabling exercise faith and accept Jesus Christ (Killen, “Regeneration,” 1449).

The reformed view of predestination teaches that before a person can choose Christ his heart must be changed. He must be born again … one does not first believe, then become reborn. … In regeneration, God changes our hearts. He gives us a new disposition, a new inclination. He plants a desire for Christ in our hearts. We can never trust Christ for our salvation unless we first desire Him. This is why we said earlier that regeneration precedes faith (Sproul, Chosen by God, 72, 118).

The Reformers taught not only that regeneration does precede faith but also that it must precede faith. Because of the moral bondage of the unregenerate sinner, he cannot have faith until he is changed internally by the operative, monergistic work of the Holy Spirit. Faith is regeneration’s fruit, not its cause (Sproul, Willing to Believe, 23).


from R. C. Sproul:

After a person is regenerated, that person cooperates by exercising faith and trust. But the first step is the work of God and of God alone.

The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead.

Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.

This says nothing different from what Jesus said to Nicodemus. Unless a man is born again first, he cannot possibly see or enter the kingdom of God. If we believe that faith precedes regeneration, then we set our thinking and therefore ourselves in direct opposition not only to giants of Christian history but also to the teaching of Paul and of our Lord Himself (R. C. Sproul, “Regeneration Precedes Faith”).

Martin you must believe/trust in the risen Lord before you will be regenerated/saved. Your idea that you have to be regenerated first puts the cart before the horse. I really have nothing more to say on this matter. If you will not listen to Calvinists you will not hear anything from me. You may follow your calvinist view but I will just follow what the bible says.

 

Dave I have read through a number of your posts and you may at times have something to say in your posts but I just do not have the time nor inclination to search for what wheat may be among the chaff.

 

When one is born again, one sees and enters the kingdom of God (John 3:3, 5). Without a new birth one cannot so much as see the kingdom of God, much less enter it.
So there is an order to these things: first God opens the eyes of a sinner (new birth), then he believes on Christ; then he is justified by grace through faith and gains entry to the KoG. That is how it works. No one is saved before he believes. All these things may happen at pretty much the same time and often do, but the order is still the same.

 

can you provide the scripture that breaks down your order here?

 

I have no idea what JM is up to making such claims. You can bet his claims are misleading as usual
MB

 

The REASON anyone believes is because they are born from above/ born of the Spirit/ born of God. Compare:

12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God. 1 Cor 2

With:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1

48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Acts 13

Biblehub:

Berean Literal Bible
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God."

Contemporary English Version
Jesus replied, "I tell you for certain that you must be born from above before you can see God's kingdom!"

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Jesus replied to Nicodemus, "I can guarantee this truth: No one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above."

International Standard Version
Jesus replied to him, "Truly, I tell you emphatically, unless a person is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Literal Standard Version
Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone may not be born from above, he is not able to see the Kingdom of God”;

NET Bible
Jesus replied, "I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Young's Literal Translation
Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

 

Martin I see where the problem is now, you have given a new definition to "new birth" but yours does not line up with the bible. You are saying that a person must be reborn or born from above, but in your view that does not equate to saved. Interesting.

Interestingly, the Greek word translated “again” ἄνωθεν G509 or “anew” in Joh_3:3 and Joh_3:7 has two possible meanings: the first one is “again,” and the second one is “from above.” “Born again,” “born from above,” are two ways of saying the same thing.

In Joh_3:3, Joh_3:7, Joh_3:31; Joh_19:11; Jas_1:17, the meaning is from God, implied in the "from above." Word Study Dic.

One who is born again, spiritually renewed and adopted; as a child of God Webster

from above, from a higher place Thayer

So what we see is that you have chosen to adopt a special definition that fits your theology.
Your theology has a person saved/adopted by God before they believe. How is that possible?

 

He is just saying what all the others said but in less words.

 

You may have a problem; I don't.

Not new at all. It's as old as John 3.

Yes.

Yes. All that is very well known. FYI, anothen can also mean 'from the beginning' Luke 1:3.

Adopted when one believes, not before.

Yes. Born of God.

I explained it to you already. John 3:3. Unless and until one is born from above one cannot so much as see the kingdom of God. 'See' here must mean something other than to make visual contact. It means to understand, comprehend, 'get.' How can one believe if one cannot understand God's kingdom and one's need to enter it? 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' One needs a spiritual birth to understand spiritual things. 'So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.' But when one is born again, one does 'get' or understand the kingdom, at least to the extent that one understands one's native estrangement from it. And when one sees, one enters, on the two legs, as it were, of repentance and faith, and one is saved..

 

Martin I must say that I am disappointed in you. You know full well that Luk 1:3 does not relate to Joh 3:3, 7 yet you want to use it as a red herring. But since you want to do that I thought I should help you see the error in your logic.

Luk 1:3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first,G509 to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus,

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again,G509 he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'G509

You really do not like the truth do you. When I show you quotes from calvinist leaders that say regeneration = saved you say their wrong. When I show you that "born again" means "spiritually renewed and adopted; as a child of God" you say no that's not what I believe. Or again " born again, is to be regenerated and renewed; to receive spiritual life. John 3" and note they even reference Joh 3.

Martin in your scenario when does the person hear the gospel?

 

None of this supports being born again first so we can't understand. The Bible just does not say it.
MB

 

Yes it does. It proves it.

 

So you have people saved before they even believe but how is that possible?

 

No, they're born from Jerusalem above BEFORE they come to faith. That's an absolute necessity:

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3

26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all, Gal 4

You have no more say so about your spiritual birth than you did your physical birth.

 

Since you brought them up then perhaps you can give a good clear definition for "election & regeneration"

 

So this is how you see the love of God played out. Infants cast into the lake of fire.
Since God is the one that sets the standard for showing love to our fellow man then you must see not harm in any of the violent crimes that happen. And all those rapes and murders, as J. White said, would be senseless if God did not decree them.
Being that this is how you describe calvinism then I am glad I am not one.

 

It's called election.

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:28-30 ).

Those who love God are the called according to His purpose.
Those whom He foreknew ( and only those that were foreknown ) were predestinated conformed to the image of Christ...and no others.
The same grace exists towards those He predestinated...

" But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: " ( 1 Peter 2:9 ).

...He called them according to His purpose, just as Romans 8:28 states.
Those He called, He justified by the blood of His Son, and those He justified, He glorified.

I cannot speak for Willis, but here are mine:

Election = God's choosing someone to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ), in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ) and giving them to his Son ( John 6:39, John 6:65, John 17:2 ).
Regeneration = the new birth, or being "born again" ( Titus 3:5-7 )...
It's the renewing of a person's mind ( Romans 12:2 ) and heart by the Holy Ghost.
They were born of God ( John 1:13, John 3:3, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 5:1 ), born of the Spirit (John 3:6 ).

Their sinful nature has been changed and they've been given a new "heart" ( seat of desires and affections ) for God...
One that is not in rebellion to Him and His ways.


May God bless you, sir, with many good and perfect gifts.

 

To bad that is not what the bible say. The elect are the ones that believe. But you won't accept that as you are to committed to you calvinism and thus ignore the bible.

 

Agreed....they are indeed, the "whosoever believeth", from the heart.
They are the ones who confess Christ with the mouth and with the heart believe unto salvation, just as Romans 10:8-10 states, and the ones who call upon the Lord out of a pure heart.

God's elect = Christ's "sheep" = the "wheat" = the righteous = the whosoever believeth from the heart = those who call upon Him out of a pure heart = the beloved = the lively stones = the children of God = those who are saved = those who are born again = those who have the Spirit of God = the ones that have received Christ = those that are "of" God = those who are written in the Book of Life.

Again, may God bless you, and may you have a good evening.