Vessels of Mercy !

MB said:

It doesn't really mean that God is willing to show His wrath.

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Are you sure about that?

" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them." ( Romans 1:18-19 ).

" For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." ( 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 ).

" God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day." ( Psalms 7:11 ).

" Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God." ( Romans 2:4-9 ).

He's perfectly willing, and in fact, the day of His wrath is coming;
both upon this world right before the Lord comes again, and at the Judgment when He casts those who do not love Him into eternal fire.

The only reason that He stays His hand, is for the sake of His children ( 2 Peter 3:8-10 ).

MB said:

Maybe you'll notice the truth.

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Perhaps you'll notice ( and believe ) the words above, MB.
I know that I would very much like to see that.

MB said:

The vessels of wrath were the Gentiles who were not a people of God. They were vessels of wrath because they didn't have any chance of mercy. But what you are saying is that Gentiles can't be saved.

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No I'm not;
In fact, quite the opposite.

Shall we look, together, at what God's word says?

" even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" ( Romans 9:24 ). <--- the ones that He has called are both of the Jews and of the Gentiles.

" What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith." (Romans 9:30).

" For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." ( Romans 10:12-13 ).

Gentiles can be, and indeed are, saved by the Lord.

So, what I'm saying is that according to the Bible ( especially in Romans 9 ),
God's elect ( chosen and called by Him to their salvation, see 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ) are composed of both Jews and Gentiles, and that He will indeed save Gentiles as well as Jews.

That's why, knowing that I do not know who God's elect are until they believe His words and grow in their faith,
and knowing the terror of the Lord because I see that He is willing to show His wrath and to make His power known,
I persuade men with the Scriptures, my friend...

In case there are any vessels of mercy that are out there, and who will hear both Him and them.

Dave G said:

No I'm not;
In fact, quite the opposite.

Shall we look, together, at what God's word says?

" even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" ( Romans 9:24 ). <--- the ones that He has called are both of the Jews and of the Gentiles.

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Yes he called both but there is a difference between called and elect.
You know what that means No election here!.

Dave G said:

" What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith." (Romans 9:30).

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Absolutely This is exactly what it means

Dave G said:

" For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." ( Romans 10:12-13 ).

Gentiles can be, and indeed are, saved by the Lord.

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I agree.

Dave G said:

So, what I'm saying is that according to the Bible ( especially in Romans 9 ),
God's elect ( chosen and called by Him to their salvation, see 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ) are composed of both Jews and Gentiles, and that He will indeed save Gentiles as well as Jews.

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Yes I agree
I disagree hereon the point of election. There is nothing said about the election of Gentiles in 2nd Thess 2:13-14 They were called but that does not mean they're elect. The works of the saved are not done for recognition they are done out of love.. Good works only say you have done something good it does not mean you are a Christian.Or that you will be if you keep them up.

Dave G said:

That's why, knowing that I do not know who God's elect are until they believe His words and grow in their faith,
and knowing the terror of the Lord because I see that He is willing to show His wrath and to make His power known,
I persuade men with the Scriptures, my friend...

In case there are any vessels of mercy that are out there, and who will hear both Him and them.

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Sorry for my ignorance but, I have no idea of how you would persuade men to believe in God on a maybe of being saved if they are elect. I believe in Christ Jesus because I'm convinced of the gospel.I am convinced of His death burial and resurrection.I know I'm saved and I do not have to work to prove it. Salvation does not depend on being elect. Salvation is by grace through faith There is no other way. If I had to be elect then Salvation would depend on election. It doesn't.
MB

Dave G said:

Are you sure about that?

" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them." ( Romans 1:18-19 ).

" For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." ( 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 ).

" God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day." ( Psalms 7:11 ).

" Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God." ( Romans 2:4-9 ).

He's perfectly willing, and in fact, the day of His wrath is coming;
both upon this world right before the Lord comes again, and at the Judgment when He casts those who do not love Him into eternal fire.

The only reason that He stays His hand, is for the sake of His children ( 2 Peter 3:8-10 ).

Perhaps you'll notice ( and believe ) the words above, MB.
I know that I would very much like to see that.

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No where in scripture does it ever say God is willing to show His wrath. It says very plainly at the begining if the passage:" WHAT IF GOD"
MB

Brightfame52 said:

I believe we have scriptural support that some were designated vessels of mercy before they were born, even before the foundation of the world. Look ar Rom 9:20-23

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Also Ps 103:17

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

They fear Him in time because they were designed for mercy in the everlasting covenant of mercy from everlasting.

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Do you see that little phraise I put a line under It says "what if God" Those three little words make the difference. God was not willing to show His wrath because he did not show any wrath.
MB

Brightfame52 said:

Thats a bold error friend.

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You really need to study scripture and stop with your false philosophy.
MB

MB said:

I disagree hereon the point of election. There is nothing said about the election of Gentiles in 2nd Thess 2:13-14 They were called but that does not mean they're elect.

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Paul told the Thessalonians of their election in the first letter, MB:

" We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4 knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. " ( 1 Thessalonians 1:2-5 ).

Then in the second letter he told them even more.

MB said:

I believe in Christ Jesus because I'm convinced of the gospel.

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As do I.

But if you believe in Jesus Christ it's because you're one of His sheep.
That is what the Lord Himself told His disciples ( John 10:26-29 ), and that's why everyone who believes on Him should give Him the glory...for without God's choice, we would have continued to choose against Him and His Son.
It's really that simple...

Salvation is "of" the Lord.
It's a gift, not a reward for us doing something that pleases Him.

MB said:

Sorry for my ignorance but, I have no idea of how you would persuade men to believe in God on a maybe of being saved if they are elect.

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I don't.
I tell everyone who truly believes on Christ, from the heart and deep down in very depths of their soul,
the same things that Paul told the churches in the epistles...

The reasons behind why they were willing to believe and trust Christ as their Lord and Saviour, when others around them did not;
and what the Bible actually says about how and why they even bothered to believe.

Because while their friends and relatives reject them and make fun of them for daring to do so,
God tells them that their having the faith to endure all of that persecution and casting their cares upon Him, is because of His love for them...

As His children, chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world.

MB said:

Do you see that little phraise I put a line under It says "what if God" Those three little words make the difference. God was not willing to show His wrath because he did not show any wrath.
MB

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What if doesnt change anything , it means " in the same way" referring back to what just preceded in Vs 20-21

Its emphasizing God doing His business or His Sovereignty !

MB said:

You really need to study scripture and stop with your false philosophy.
MB

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I have studied, thats how I know its bold error and presumption to say the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy are the same. The vessels of wrath are getting what they deserve, justice for their sins against God, the vessels of mercy are receiving from God what they dont deserve, mercy for their sins. All of this is according to Gods Will and Glory and not what men need.

Brightfame52 said:

I have studied, thats how I know its bold error and presumption to say the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy are the same. The vessels of wrath are getting what they deserve, justice for their sins against God, the vessels of mercy are receiving from God what they dont deserve, mercy for their sins. All of this is according to Gods Will and Glory and not what men need.

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How is it you know you are in fact elect?
MB.

MB said:

How is it you know you are in fact elect?
MB.

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To deny the election of all believes leaves them out what I understand to be the resurrection and rapture in Matthew 24:29-31.
Furthermore denies the priesthood of all believers, 1 Peter 2:5-9.

MB said:

How is it you know you are in fact elect?
MB.

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How is it you miss all the teaching on election found in the Bible.

It seems you imagine that those whom God has elected are somehow arrogant about what God has done. Far from it. Scripture teaches that all fall short based on merit. This means all mankind is damned due to their sin. Only the mercy of God can save anyone. If God chooses to show you mercy, you have been chosen, you are elect. If God chooses not to show you mercy, you remain damned. There is no bragging or boasting in being given mercy. Instead there is a deep humbling that God has been so very merciful. It defies explanation and truly any reason for why God chose mercy is locked up with God alone. I cannot demand from God that He tell me why He chose mercy for me and not for someone else. In fact, I do not even know who the elect are as there are many who are tares in the community.

How can I know that I am elect? The Spirit bares witness to the fact that God has given me faith. The Spirit prays for me and enables me to present my members to God. This is something I could not do when I was dead in my sins.

But you, MB, you can never really know if I am chosen by God. I could be lying. You don't know. All you can go on is my works and we know that works do not justify us or save us.

37818 said:

To deny the election of all believes leaves them out what I understand to be the resurrection and rapture in Matthew 24:29-31.
Furthermore denies the priesthood of all believers, 1 Peter 2:5-9.

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Explain with scripture please?
MB

MB said:

Explain with scripture please?
MB

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Well at Christ's appearing He has His angels ". . . gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matthew 24:31.". And priesthood, 1 Peter 2:9, ". . . ye are a chosen[elect] generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; . . . ."

37818 said:

Well at Christ's appearing He has His angels ". . . gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matthew 24:31.". And priesthood, 1 Peter 2:9, ". . . ye are a chosen[elect] generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; . . . ."

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Those verses are correct yet they do not pertain to Gentiles. Only Jews are a royal priesthood and a holy nation. His elect are the Jews and God's angels will gather them. This not to say the Gentiles are out of luck, Those who believe will be gathered as well.
MB

MB said:

Those verses are correct yet they do not pertain to Gentiles. Only Jews are a royal priesthood and a holy nation. His elect are the Jews and God's angels will gather them. This not to say the Gentiles are out of luck, Those who believe will be gathered as well.
MB

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MB, you make a false assertion.

Romans 2:28-29 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 9:6-8 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Regarding the elect we see that the children of God, from all nations, tribes and tongues are the elect.

Romans 8:16-17,19,28-31 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

Romans 9:24-26 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

Ephesians 1:3-6,11-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

1 Thessalonians 1:1,4 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.

For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

MB, God's word shows your assertion is false. You can keep stating falsely as you wish, but know that God proves your statement to be false in His Word.

MB said:

Those verses are correct yet they do not pertain to Gentiles. Only Jews are a royal priesthood and a holy nation. His elect are the Jews and God's angels will gather them. This not to say the Gentiles are out of luck, Those who believe will be gathered as well.
MB

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Ok. By your interpertation Gentles are excluded from any believers priesthood. Period.

MB said:

Those verses are correct yet they do not pertain to Gentiles. Only Jews are a royal priesthood and a holy nation. His elect are the Jews and God's angels will gather them. This not to say the Gentiles are out of luck, Those who believe will be gathered as well.
MB

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Us goyim are just an 'afterthought', right?