The Obvious Need for Confessional Basics Concerning The Faith

Many in our day have walked way from Confessions of faith, and biblical catechisms.

Many lack the discipline to work through them and grow from the wisdom given to others.

Some suggest we do not need God-given teachers, or God-given teachers who commit to putting solid teaching down in books, and commentaries. Confessions of faith and catechisms protect us from such errors as these;

Which fall? Did Adam fall? where in scripture does it say he fell? Why do you claim He fell? What did he fall from? Adam sinned He didn't fall. He could not have died Spiritually because He spoke to God in the garden afterward. We are all innocent in the beginning of our lives until we sin. but after Salvation no We are never under sin again because we cannot sin. Being spiritually dead means nothing more than being separated from God. No, it's not a Joke. If Adam fell you should be able to prove it with scripture alone. Your verse says Adam sinned it does not say he fell. I already know he sinned this does not mean he fell. If in fact, he did fall from where and to where did he fall? Adam was not spiritually dead. Adam was not Spiritually dead he could not have been if in fact he was spiritually dead because of sin.
Then why don't Calvinist say what they mean. Adam didn't fall.Adam sinned. But no Calvinist have to take it to another level insanity Unless of course you fell the last time you sinned. Adam did not die spiritually when he sinned either. He spoke to God after he sinned so did Cain. I'll tel you why. It's because Adam was not dead after he sinned. Calvinist claim we inherited what happened to Adam because of his sin and it's a bologna sandwich.

A Confessional background would be a safeguard against such errors.

Chapter 6: Of the Fall of Man, Of Sin, And of the Punishment Thereof
1._____ Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it, and threatened death upon the breach thereof, yet he did not long abide in this honour; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion, did willfully transgress the law of their creation, and the command given unto them, in eating the forbidden fruit, which God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.
( Genesis 2:16, 17; Genesis 3:12,13; 2 Corinthians 11:3 )
2._____ Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.
( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )

3._____ They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

4._____ From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

5._____ The corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.
( Romans 7:18,23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; Romans 7:23-25; Galatians 5:17 )

Why do you use the word Trinity?

Trinity is not a word found in the Bible


Why do you use the word eternal in the OT?

Eternal is is a Hebrew word, it is everlasting

Olam le Olam.

from everlasting to everlasting

Growing up in fundamentalist bible churches and Baptist churches I thought catechism was the reason my Roman Catholic friends had to waste their Saturdays going to school. It wasn't until I started reading some of the Puritans that I saw references to confessions and catechisms. I remember I even asked my associate pastor, who was a graduate of Tennessee Temple what he thought of the Westminster Confession. To my surprise he said it was good and useful. I have found it so. I also really like some of the question and answer format of the catechisms. I still am a little uneasy when I see kids memorizing catechisms more than scripture. But they really are useful and there is even a Baptist Confession if the Westminster makes you uncomfortable.

What is being taught regarding Genesis 3:22? And what has it to do with Genesis 2:17, ". . . for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."?

DaveXR650 said:

Growing up in fundamentalist bible churches and Baptist churches I thought catechism was the reason my Roman Catholic friends had to waste their Saturdays going to school. It wasn't until I started reading some of the Puritans that I saw references to confessions and catechisms. I remember I even asked my associate pastor, who was a graduate of Tennessee Temple what he thought of the Westminster Confession. To my surprise he said it was good and useful. I have found it so. I also really like some of the question and answer format of the catechisms. I still am a little uneasy when I see kids memorizing catechisms more than scripture. But they really are useful and there is even a Baptist Confession if the Westminster makes you uncomfortable.

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Like the 1689 Confession in modern English!

Iconoclast said:

Many in our day have walked way from Confessions of faith, and biblical catechisms.

Many lack the discipline to work through them and grow from the wisdom given to others.

Some suggest we do not need God-given teachers, or God-given teachers who commit to putting solid teaching down in books, and commentaries. Confessions of faith and catechisms protect us from such errors as these;

Which fall? Did Adam fall? where in scripture does it say he fell? Why do you claim He fell? What did he fall from? Adam sinned He didn't fall. He could not have died Spiritually because He spoke to God in the garden afterward. We are all innocent in the beginning of our lives until we sin. but after Salvation no We are never under sin again because we cannot sin. Being spiritually dead means nothing more than being separated from God. No, it's not a Joke. If Adam fell you should be able to prove it with scripture alone. Your verse says Adam sinned it does not say he fell. I already know he sinned this does not mean he fell. If in fact, he did fall from where and to where did he fall? Adam was not spiritually dead. Adam was not Spiritually dead he could not have been if in fact he was spiritually dead because of sin.
Then why don't Calvinist say what they mean. Adam didn't fall.Adam sinned. But no Calvinist have to take it to another level insanity Unless of course you fell the last time you sinned. Adam did not die spiritually when he sinned either. He spoke to God after he sinned so did Cain. I'll tel you why. It's because Adam was not dead after he sinned. Calvinist claim we inherited what happened to Adam because of his sin and it's a bologna sandwich.

A Confessional background would be a safeguard against such errors.

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need to avoid 2 extremes, first being we just need to use "Bible only", and other is that some indeed seem to reference Confessions and Creeds more then scriptures!

Marooncat79 said:

Why do you use the word Trinity?

Trinity is not a word found in the Bible

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and what do you find wrong with this? The Term Incarnation is not found in the Bible, but is very much taught in the Bible!

BINOs do not actually believe in autonomous churches. They think everyone should agree with 5 point Calvinism. They believe in bondage of the soul, not individual soul liberty.

@Iconoclast :
I've never felt the need to do anything other than to read His words for myself, my friend.

I've learned more from that, than I have ever learned from "catechisms" and commentaries, or anything like them.
From the Scriptures I see that none of God's children ever needed them, either, and I believe that over the centuries there are many religious constructs that have crept into the churches, that ought not be there.

As believers in Jesus Christ and the sheep of His pasture,
We have everything that we need that pertains to life and godliness, and the Lord has provided that in the way of His word and in the Person of His Spirit.

While I believe that confessions can be useful, I do not believe that they are vital...
They are what they are...expressions of what groups of people believe the Scriptures to teach.

As for commentaries,
I wholeheartedly believe that it is not only the duty, but the privilege of all believers to dig deeply into His word for their own answers, and for their own comfort and building up.
While the Lord does indeed provide teachers and preachers, pastors and so forth...
they are for the edification of God's saints.

They are not there to teach them how to understand His words, nor are they there to instruct them using man-made principles and devices that are, ultimately, not as good at doing what the Lord alone can and does do.

His teachers and preachers are there to assist, not to get in the way or try and do something in addition to what His word and His Spirit can and will do...
Cause them to grow in both grace and knowledge.


May God bless you.

The Term “Catechize” The English word “catechism” is derived from the Gk. verb katēchēo, “to resound, teach orally, instruct by mouth.” This term originally had the idea of “speaking down or from above” i.e., from actors on an elevated stage. It is a compound of the preposition kata, “down, throughout, thoroughly” and the verb ēchēo, “to sound,” the source of our English word, “echo.” There seems to be in this etymology the idea of a responsive answer. Catechizing has the connotation of thorough or repeated oral instruction, and is only one of several related terms for instruction or teaching found in Scripture. The term itself occurs eight times in the New Testament (twice as “informed” in Acts 21:21, 24, referring to word–of–mouth information):

“That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been catechized.” Luke 1:4.


18 “This man had been constantly catechized in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord...” Acts 18:25.

“And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being constantly catechized out of the law...” Romans 2:18.


1 Cor. 14:19.
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might catechize others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.”

“Let him who is being catechized in the word communicate unto him who catechizes in all good things.” Gal. 6:6.

From A Baptist Catechism with Commentary,by W>R> DOWNING

. QUESTION 1: Why use a catechism? ANSWER: There are several reasons why churches, families and individuals should make good use of a suitable catechism:

1. The use of a catechism is scriptural in principle and is based upon the Divine mandate for biblical instruction in the Oof catechizing, which evidently consisted of repetitive oral instruction, commitment to memory and an oral response.

2. Everyone needs two types of biblical knowledge: first, everyone should at least have a general knowledge of the Bible, its historical format, the basic principles of redemptive history and some knowledge about the various books of the Bible, the historical circumstances of their writing and their leading characters. Second, everyone should be taught to understand, think and reason doctrinally from the Scriptures. Since Bible times, this has been the purpose of a doctrinally–sound catechism. These two types of knowledge— biblical and doctrinal—necessarily complement one another. Doctrinal truth is the message of the Bible, the very “soul” of Scripture.

3. The use of a catechism is the most concise and best method to instill Divine truth in the mind and heart and impress it upon the memory. 4. Catechisms can be written (and have been written) in such a way as to be adequate and appropriate for any given age or level of spiritual development. • Little children can at least learn the questions and answers of a very simple catechism, and often begin to memorize at least one verse of Scripture with each set. Much must be done when the mind is young, prone to learn and absorb, and largely unoccupied with the issues of life. • Older children and new converts can profit greatly from catechisms, which necessarily and naturally call for explanation and discussion. •

The very process of catechizing presupposes that those who catechize others have a sufficient foundation and maturity in the Old Testament and also the inspired example of the New Testament (Deut. 4:9–10; 6:4–9; Lk. 1:4; Gal. 6:6; Eph. 6:1–
4). The question–and–answer format of modern catechisms is incidental to the pervading scriptural principle truth to explain from Scripture the truths declared in the catechism.

Without Confessions and catechisms to prevent against error we have people bringing back old Heresies,
like the other day , we found this one trying to enter the Jn 6 thread;
From the Banner of Truth;
And this is where Apollinarius went astray, he tried to answer the question of ‘how it was done.’ He began with the question, ‘what is man?’ meaning this in terms of nature; what is human nature, and how does the Incarnation work in terms of that nature. The human nature is, we know, made up of both a physical and a spiritual component, but there has been, and remains to this day, a debate as to whether human nature is made up of two parts or three; the so-called Trichotomist debate. Apollinarius seems originally have held to a Dichotomist position, that man consists of body and soul. In his eagerness to explain the Incarnation, while emphasizing the unity and true deity of the person of Christ,

Apollinarius fell into the trap of denying the full humanity of Christ, for he taught that the Divine nature took the place of an element of the human nature.

In his earlier writings he spoke of the ‘enfleshed Divinity’, and by it meant that the human soul was, in Jesus, replaced by the Divine person. Later on, probably in an effort to answer his critics, Apollinarius moved to the Trichotomist position, that human nature consists of three parts, the body, the soul, and the spirit, and that in the Incarnation the Divine nature took the place of the human spirit, conceived of as the highest part of man’s nature.

You have been suggesting this heresy both here and the other thread...


Then we have posters who suggest God owes man, He has a need to credit something in man???

[ but God crediting our faith as righteousness,
5) Faith alone refers to faithful faith, the faith from which faithfulness flows, or using James illustration, live faith not dead faith. Thus actual faith, of the kind God might choose to credit as righteousness,
Nope, only the individuals faith in Christ Jesus, if credited as righteousness by God.
Romans 4:23-24 teaches God will credit the faith of those who believe
How about God credits our faith as righteousness for our benefit?
No Siree, according to Calvinism God does not credit our faith for our benefit, He instills via irresistible grace His faith and then credits that faith as righteousness. I kid you not...
If a person's worthless dirty rag faith is credited by God as righteousness, only then is a person saved by reason of that credited faith.]

Instead of this;
Chapter 14: Of Saving Faith
1._____ The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word; by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened. ( 2 Corinthians 4:13; Ephesians 2:8; Romans 10:14, 17; Luke 17:5; 1 Peter 2:2; Acts 20:32 )
2._____ By this faith a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word for the authority of God himself, and also apprehendeth an excellency therein above all other writings and all things in the world, as it bears forth the glory of God in his attributes, the excellency of Christ in his nature and offices, and the power and fullness of the Holy Spirit in his workings and operations: and so is enabled to cast his soul upon the truth thus believed; and also acteth differently upon that which each particular passage thereof containeth; yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come; but the principal acts of saving faith have immediate relation to Christ, accepting, receiving, and resting upon him alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.
( Acts 24:14; Psalms 27:7-10; Psalms 119:72; 2 Timothy 1:12; John 14:14; Isaiah 66:2; Hebrews 11:13; John 1:12; Acts 16:31; Galatians 2:20; Acts 15:11 )

3._____ This faith, although it be different in degrees, and may be weak or strong, yet it is in the least degree of it different in the kind or nature of it, as is all other saving grace, from the faith and common grace of temporary believers; and therefore, though it may be many times assailed and weakened, yet it gets the victory, growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance through Christ, who is both the author and finisher of our faith.
( Hebrews 5:13, 14; Matthew 6:30; Romans 4:19, 20; 2 Peter 1:1; Ephesians 6:16; 1 John 5:4, 5; Hebrews 6:11, 12; Colossians 2:2; Hebrews 12:2 )

Dave G,

I've never felt the need to do anything other than to read His words for myself, my friend.

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Reading scripture is a command. You are diligent to obey that command to an extent.
Others on this board who are non confessional claim they do the same thing as you, yet they do not agree on doctrine with you.

I've learned more from that, than I have ever learned from "catechisms" and commentaries, or anything like them.[/QUOTE]

As for commentaries,
I wholeheartedly believe that it is not only the duty, but the privilege of all believers to dig deeply into His word for their own answers, and for their own comfort and building up.

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So a new believer is going to understand all the places, and history, without help? A commentary like Matthew Henry is not useful to new believers?

While the Lord does indeed provide teachers and preachers, pastors and so forth...
they are for the edification of God's saints.

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EDIFY, in what way? Other than a public reading of scripture, how exactly do they help???

They are not there to teach them how to understand His words, nor are they there to instruct them using man-made principles and devices that are, ultimately, not as good at doing what the Lord alone can and does do.

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WHAT EXACTLY ARE THEY THERE TO DO DAVE???
I have seen you make a similar comment before. Your scripture support for the comment was in error. What do we do with that? How can a lone ranger be accountable? how does he discover if he is in error.

His teachers and preachers are there to assist,

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Assist in what way? Can you list for me 5 ways they "assist"?

not to get in the way

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I make it a point to Listen to Steve Lawson when ever I can, How does he get in my way?
LIsten to any one and explain to me what you mean that He will get in my way.

https://lionandlambapologetics.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Romans-Steven-Lawson.pdf

or try and do something in addition to what His word and His Spirit can and will do...
Cause them to grow in both grace and knowledge.

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Dave I know from your posts and speaking with you that you are serious and diligent in studying the word.
i am not worried about someone who studies scripture as much as unsaved persons.
I believe you can do what you do, but I do not agree that what you advocate on this scripturally consistent or defensible.

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Van said:

BINOs do not actually believe in autonomous churches. They think everyone should agree with 5 point Calvinism. They believe in bondage of the soul, not individual soul liberty.

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We believe that a church can hold to either Calvinism or Arminian theology regarding Sotierology and be Baptist!

Dave G said:

@Iconoclast :
I've never felt the need to do anything other than to read His words for myself, my friend.

I've learned more from that, than I have ever learned from "catechisms" and commentaries, or anything like them.
From the Scriptures I see that none of God's children ever needed them, either, and I believe that over the centuries there are many religious constructs that have crept into the churches, that ought not be there.

As believers in Jesus Christ and the sheep of His pasture,
We have everything that we need that pertains to life and godliness, and the Lord has provided that in the way of His word and in the Person of His Spirit.

While I believe that confessions can be useful, I do not believe that they are vital...
They are what they are...expressions of what groups of people believe the Scriptures to teach.

As for commentaries,
I wholeheartedly believe that it is not only the duty, but the privilege of all believers to dig deeply into His word for their own answers, and for their own comfort and building up.
While the Lord does indeed provide teachers and preachers, pastors and so forth...
they are for the edification of God's saints.

They are not there to teach them how to understand His words, nor are they there to instruct them using man-made principles and devices that are, ultimately, not as good at doing what the Lord alone can and does do.

His teachers and preachers are there to assist, not to get in the way or try and do something in addition to what His word and His Spirit can and will do...
Cause them to grow in both grace and knowledge.


May God bless you.

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The Lord Himself gifted men to the Church, to instruct and teach us into maturity, so its not just "me and my bible"

Iconoclast said:

Dave G,


Reading scripture is a command. You are diligent to obey that command to an extent.
Others on this board who are non confessional claim they do the same thing as you, yet they do not agree on doctrine with you.

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We are to use the scriptures as our primary source, and while it alone is infallible and inspired of God, we should also use other reference tools and sources!

Iconoclast said:

Reading scripture is a command. You are diligent to obey that command to an extent.
Others on this board who are non confessional claim they do the same thing as you, yet they do not agree on doctrine with you.

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I'm aware of that, Tony.
I'm also aware of our disagreement on this subject.

I've said what I intended to say, and I wish you well.

Dave G said:

I'm aware of that, Tony.
I'm also aware of our disagreement on this subject.

I've said what I intended to say, and I wish you well.

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ok my friend,we can leave it there

Yeshua1 said:

We believe that a church can hold to either Calvinism or Arminian theology regarding Sotierology and be Baptist!

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BINOs do not actually believe in autonomous churches. They think everyone should agree with 5 point Calvinism. They believe in bondage of the soul, not individual soul liberty.