Poll: Real Wine in Communion

wow... Im speachless
2Th 2:3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

Believe me, Sweetie, if I wanted to deliberately skew a poll, it would be in such a way you would never figure it out. </font>[/QUOTE]nice...


Jamie

 

So Christians drinking wine is the great falling away of the end times? Perhaps you should read the other posts about the history of real wine in communion until the late 1800s.

 

I just spent several hours researching some of the things I was challenged on in one of the wine threads that was just closed. Here is the post that I couldn't post there:

1.First to Linda and those who don't think that Paul told Timothy to take wine for a possible ulcer:

Previous research has found that wine and beer help wipe out Heliobacter pylori, a bacteria that is associated with peptic ulcers and gastric cancer.
http://www.youngagain.com/redwidrhaler.html -- Study Links Wine Drinking to Lower Risk of Stomach Cancer

also

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/57/66101.htm -- Moderate Wine, Beer Drinking May Kill Ulcer Bug

2. Now, does alcohol relax muscles?

"Because alcohol is a muscle relaxant..."
http://www.dreamdoctor.com/better/insomnia/6.shtml
this website warns about taking alcohol before bedtime as it can help you fall asleep initially but causes problems later. However part of the problem is due to the fact that alcohol is a muscle relaxant!

"Alcohol is a muscle relaxant,.." which is why you don't want any after a big meal...
http://www.lifetimetv.com/reallife/health/features/hol_indigestion2.html


You will find small amounts of wine RECOMMENDED on this midwife page for the same problem I had -- ongoing premature labor which results in many nights' sleep lost. Three ounces is the maximum recommended, I believe. I needed less, along with a hot shower, to stop the false labor. The Rx was from a nurse on the phone to me when I called in exhausted tears asking for help.

http://wb11.empowereddoctor.com/story.php?id=236
-- benefits of small amounts of red wine in particular

3. Why did they take alcohol on stage trips, etc? Because although alcohol decreases the full body temperature as a net result, the temporary result is that it increases blood flow to surface areas. If the danger of cold is known to be temporary, or if one is coming into a reasonably warm place after suffering frost-nip (and, possibly, frost bite, but that was only one one website and not from a doctor), a hot buttered rum or a glass of wine will actually help you warm up.

4. Did Christ turn water into wine? He sure did -- He was serving up some medicine!

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/83/i44/8344sci2.html -- Anticancer Agents Found In Aged Wine

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1986514.stm -- Red wine 'protects from colds'

http://www.foodconsumer.org/777/8/Red_wine_compound_reduces_Alzheimer_s_disease-causing_peptides.shtml -- this one shows, for the benefit of those opposed to alcohol, that some of the benefits may also be gotten from the grapes themselves.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/09/030909070840.htm -- New Cholesterol Fighter Found In Red Wine

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1719675.stm -- Why red wine is healthier

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=13870 -- A glass of red wine a day may keep prostate cancer away

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/10/001018221332.htm -- Grapes Or Grain? Wine Drinking May Reduce Colon Cancer Risk; Beer, Hard Liquor Provide No Benefit


http://www.news-medical.net/print_article.asp?id=1067 -- Wine may reduce the risk of ovarian cancer

http://patient.cancerconsultants.com/nhl_cancer_news.aspx?id=17573 -- Red Wine Consumption Associated with Reduced Risk of Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma

http://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/news/8525697700573E1885256D270055E2E3 -- One Glass of Wine Per Day Improves Arterial Elasticity: Presented at ASH(HYP)

http://heart.healthcentersonline.com/newsstories/anotherheartbenefitfoundinred.cfm -- Another heart benefit found in red wine

http://www.chemie.de/news/e/32631/ -- Possible antitumor substances in red wine are formed during ageing in oak barrels

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3378328a7775,00.html -- Raise a glass of red for eye health - study

Moderate consumption of wine, meaning one to two glasses per day, may actually be good for your health according to Dr. Curtis Ellison, Chief of Preventive Medicine at Boston University (Moderate Wine Consumption and Health: A Scientific Perspective). Historically, wine has been recommended by physicians for the treatment of iron deficiency anemia, to help vegetarians increase their mineral absorption, and to help reduce the incidence of troublesome sleep disorders. The traditional use of wine with meals offers many benefits including aiding the digestive process, stimulating the intake of nutrients and helping reduce the risk of coronary heart disease by reducing cholesterol.
http://www.ncwine.org/consumer/wineandhealth.html


please understand I am NOT promoting drinking even wine if someone feels it is wrong. But to say that it is a sin or unbiblical or unhealthful even in small amounts is a lie, pure and simple.

I do want to thank standing, Shiloh, and the others for sparking me to look up all this. I now understand even more why a doctor had be drink some wine daily during a period of my life when I became anemic after a bout of medication. I understand a lot more about wine from having spent a few hours reading all this stuff.

Now I KNOW wine is good for me and a blessing from God. I KNOW I was right about the reason Paul recommended it to Timothy for his stomach's sake. And, for those who do drink wine and might have missed what one of the studies said, cabernet sauvignon - derived wines have the most healthful benefits. In many cases, but not all, grapes themselves have the same benefits. But there are several studies in which it was the fermented alcoholic wine which was the most beneficial.

In EVERY study, too much alcohol was dangerous. Too much was often defined as more than two glasses a day. For me, that would be too much! In most of the studies, beer and hard liquor did not have the benefits of wine and white and rose wines did not have the benefits of red wine.

Again, I want to thank those who stimulated me to dig into this more myself.

 

Based upon what Helen said, I think she omitted one thing: Drinking wine in moderation is good for an ulcer, and that's as long as the ulcer is not too bad.

As with everything else that has been said, moderation is important.

 

Bro. Jeff, I am familiar with it in some missionary Baptists that aren't even all that primitivistic. But it definitely is more prevalent in primitivistic bodies. I think the temperance movement probably didn't affect them as much. J.R. Graves, a leading Landmark proponent, had a booklet espousing wine as the element, and some Landmarkers will not give up the position, despite the stiff opposition they receive from "brother landmarkers".

I agree. A church should take a stand and stand on it. I believe the original cup was (fermented) wine, and we ought to follow the original as Jesus instituted it. Nevertheless, I wouldn't fall out with a sister church that used fruit of the (grape) vine, since those -- fruit of the vine -- are the words Jesus used.

 

In this compilation, I would like to prove that usage of the word "wine" does NOT always infer a fermented beverage. It is a generic word (meaning fermented or unfermented), not only in the old & new testaments, but also in the secular world. Let's begin by acknowledging just a few reputable sources. The following material is just a portion of a list which comes from F. R. Lees' work, The Bible Wine Question.

Aristotle ...new wine "it is WINE in name, but not in effect..." (4th century B.C.)
Callixenus ...they "were trampling on the grapes, and the NEW-WINE (gleukos) ran out over the whole road..." (300 B.C.)
Papias ..."Each grape shall yield 21`five and twenty measures of WINE (oinos)..." (90 A.D.)
Babylonian paraphrase on Genesis 27:25 speaks of "WINE reserved in its grapes."
The Gemara speaks of "WINE preserved in its grapes."
Suidas... "GLEUKUS ...the droppings of the grapes before being trodden..." (950 A.D.)
Sir Thomas Herbert speaks of WINE gotten from wounding the Toddy Tree and catching the juice (1638 A.D.)
John Parkinson under the heading "Vines" says: "The juice or liquor pressed out of the ripe grape is called VINUM, WINE..." (1640 A.D.)
Henry Southwell speaking of martyrs said that they were "like grapes when pressed, they yield luxuriant WINE" (1660 A.D.)
Thomas Blount speaks of must as NEW-WINE, or, "that which is first pressed out of the grape." (1670 A.D.)
Edward Phillips says of must, "WINE newly pressed from the grapes (1670 A.D.)
J.W. Gent speaks of "WINE-cinder" and "cherry-WINE." The juice of the cherry is "gently pressed" and makes "a very pleasant WINE" (1676 A.D.)
W. Robertson, "WINE; Vinum ... New-WINE; Mustum - New WINE that runs out with-out pressing." (1693 A.D.)
Thomas Sprat speaks of vessels into which is put "cute or unfermented WINE." (1702 A.D.)
J.M. Gesner says: "Once for all it must be observed, that the words VINUM (wine), VITIS (vine), UVAE (grape-clusters), and VINEA (vineyard), as kindred terms are sometimes used synonymously..." and "The juice of apples, pears, pomegranates, and sorbs, was called VINUM." (1730 A.D.)
Miller's Gardener's Dictionary: "The first time they lower the great beams upon the grapes, they (the French) call the WINE that runs out the WINE of Guotte, because it is the finest and most exquisite in the grape ... The WINE strains from the press into a puncheon ... Vin Bourra, as they call it, i.e., a new and sweet white WINE that has not worked..." (1748 A.D.)
E. Chambers speaks of, "Sweet WINE" which has not yet fermented; WINE which is called "Mere-goutte," mother-drop, which is the virgin-WINE; Burnt WINE is "boiled up with sugar." (1750 A.D.)
Samuel Johnson speaks of Must as "New WINE" (1773 A.D.)
John Parkhurst tells of Ovid applying the Latin "mecum" to mean "pure WINE as it is pressed out of the grapes."
J.F. Schleusner: "OINOS; generally VINUM liquor expressed from grapes whether new or old ...OINOS neos, VINUM novum i.e., must, alias gleukos...GLEUKOS, prop erly the liquor which drops from the grape before treading." (1810 A.D.)
Gesenius (in the last edition of his lexicon, 1844): "TIROSH, must, of the juice of the grape." (1844 A.D.)
James Donegan: "GLEUKOS; new, unfermented WINE, must ...SIRAION...a WINE prepared by boiling grapes..." (1826A.D.)
Noah Webster: "Must, New WINE; wine pressed from the grape but not fermented." (1828 A.D.)
S. Lee: "Ahsis; Literally, trodden. New WINE; the juice of the grape..." (1830 A.D.)
John Avenarius has: "Ahsis - mustum, which is recently expressed juice. German susz: susur WEIN..." (1588 A.D.)
Dr. Ure: "Juice, when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and in common language sweet WINE." (1836 A.D.)
H. Bullinger speaks of WINE running out of the wine-press (1573 A.D.)
Bretschneider: "Oinos neos, mustum. Sept. for ahsis and tirosh. 2...Gleukos, mustum. That which drops from the grapes before being trodden. Acts 2:13. Job 32:19 where the Hebrew is yayin." (1840A.D.)
Baron Liebig: "If a flask be filled with grape juice and made air-tight, and then kept for a few hours in boiling water. .. THE WINE does not now ferment." (1844 A.D.)
Encyclopedia Americana (1855): "The juice of the grape, when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and, in common language, SWEET WINE."
Hopefully, these authorities will help offset some of the unqualified statements of others. Just because we (today in America) use the word "wine" to indicate that which is intoxicating doesn't mean that it was always used in that way! Fairness and honesty demands that we understand this topic from their perspective, not ours.

 

the articles said that. In addition, I tried to say similar at the end. I'm sorry that was missed.

 

Helen, thanks for all that info.

 

Neither Jesus or Paul used the word "wine" when referring to the Lord's Supper. They used the word "cup" and "fruit of the vine"

And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. (Matthew 26:27-29)

After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup , ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup . (1 Corinthians 11:25-28)

Fruit of the vine always refers to the fresh juice of the grape--unfermented.

 

Prove that.
And as you do so, note that if this is the way unfermented juice from the vine is designated, then in the rest of the passages (39 in the NT) in which the word "wine" is used, either it is alcoholic wine or else you cannot show it is not.

 

"As with everything else that has been said, moderation is important."
but officer I ...hic... just had two ....hic....glasses. You don't understand, I am a ...hic...baptist! Helen and company.....hic....said it....hic.....is ok.

 

If you can't cope with two glasses, stop at one glass. If you can't cope with one glass, stop at half a glass. If you can't cope with that, don't drink at all. I don't understand the problem here.

 

Petrel.......I don't either. For a Christian to knowingly do anything that will hurt ones testimony....is sin. James 4:17

 

Shiloh, it doesn't hurt anyone's testimony, number one! Don't drink if you are against it. If you are not against it and don't want to drink, don't. If you want a drink, have a little and stop there. If you are hiccuping, you have had too much! You are talking like someone who does not know what moderation or 'a little bit' is!

Might also want to mention that Passover was in the spring. No grapes are on the vine in the spring. The cup HAD to be fermented wine, for 'unfermented wine' would not have been available at that time.

 

This new years i did something i haven't done in years...i drank some 'fermented' grape drink. it got me thinking, i had not touched the stuff since i left a [nonbaptist] church that served wine (along side of the juice) every sunday morning!

i miss the wine.

i used to be the teen sunday school teacher (at the above referenced church). we had a group of teens baptisted and permitted to partake in the Lord's supper for the very first time. one of them came into the sunday school class afterward and exclaimed "that was SWEET!".- it is interesting, her first time partaking of the Lord's supper, where we are called to remember Him, and it was sweet.

it isn't quite the same when the preacher talks about taking the "juice"

 

I agree. That's why I don't eat 17 donuts at a time or make love to my wife in public.

 

Grape Juice for me all the way...