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Catholic Bible Prooftexts Overlooked by Evangelicals

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Berserk, Dec 9, 2021.

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  1. Berserk

    Berserk Member

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    Much of the fundamentalist screed directed against Catholics here consists of mindless unbiblical generalizations. These fundamentalists lack the integrity to actually study the biblical basis for Catholic doctrinal distinctives and practices. Informed Catholics might justifiably issue this challenge, 'Let's get into the Word!" This thread will enumerate and methodically explore the biblical basis for several Catholic distinctives so that readers might understand why some evangelicals in my town have fled their evangelical churches to find God real in our local Catholic church.

    (1) PRIESTLY CONFESSION
    "
    Confess your sins TO ONE ANOTHER...so that you may be healed (James 5:16)."

    Most evangelicals imagine that once they get their ticket punched to Heaven, post-baptismal sin is a minor issue because it is automatically forgiven by virtue of God's grace. So they presumptuously cheapen God's grace by ignoring His command to regularly confess their sins not just to God, but to each other. If they confess their sins at all, they do so in a cursory, vague, and generalized manner like, "Lord, forgive me all my sins." Unlike Catholics, they are unwilling to do the hard work of discerning introspection to penetrate their defense mechanisms and unearth the hidden sins they actually need to confess. Thus, they make a mockery of repentance! By contrast, Catholics are willing to air their dirty linen by confessing embarrassing sins to a priest. This is important because of the need for confidentiality and the need for a mature and discerning listening ear who can offer constructive feedback.In the 19th century, Methodists required weekly confession of sins in class meetings. As a result, in 1870 Methodist spirituality was so powerful that 40% of all Americans were Methodist! Then around 1900, they were no longer willing to air their dirty linen and Methodism has endured a slow steady decline ever since.
     
  2. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    I don't believe that James, the half-brother of Jesus Christ, meant to say that we are to confess our sins to a priest who in turn tells of to repeat x-amount of "Hail Marys" or to give to some charities to be healed or forgiven. And he has no authority to absolve anyone from sin - which is the practice from what I read from Catholic sites about confession.. Where is that in the Bible? The Bible says that only God can forgive sins.

    The Bible does say that Jesus Christ is the great High Priest [Hebrews] and that he is the ONLY mediator between God and man. [1 Timorhy 2]. Jesus is our advocate with the Father and when we confess to him, he cleanses us from al righteousness. [1 John somewhere. I'll have to look it up.]

    When I want to confess my sins, I confess to Christ.

    Yes, people should ask others to pray to God for them when struggling with sin. It's a good practice.

    But no mortal man or woman can absolve you from your sins and no recitation of any words or charitable contributions or penance of ANY kind can erase your sin. Only Jesus can do that.
     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Berserk,

    Hello Berserk, A big problem you are going to encounter here, is many of us have been saved by God out of the false teaching RC. church. We know what they teach, and we know what the bible actually says.

    All believers in the new testament are believer priests in Christ.
    rev.1:
    5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    6 And hath made
    us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
    Not only that every true Christian is a saint.
    1 cor1;

    1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

    2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

    All sin is against God primarily, but you can also confess to the person you have sinned against.

    You are most likely a sincere person, and I would pray many RC. people have a simple God-given faith in Jesus, despite the false teaching of that church.
    You were not saved by your baptism.
    There is no such thing as Godparents.
    Your confirmation was another man-made fleshly ritual...did you wear your white bucks?
    Rosary beads, scapulas, holy water, all nonsense.
    Praying to Mary is idolatry.
    The perpetual virginity of Mary, a fairytale.
    Mary confessed Jesus was her savior.
    Praying to saints is a fairytale and idolatrous.
    Popes have fathered illegitimate children....perverted sex with nuns and priests,

    other than that, everything is just fine.
     
  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Ya know, if you're going to convince me, you're going to show the context of the passage. What you did here was ignore the context and create an interpretation from a sentence.
    Let's just ignore the context and you tell me what the Bible is saying in this verse.

    “I will give it all to you,” he said, “if you will kneel down and worship me.”

    Now, if I ignore the context, I could make up anything and perhaps teach that if we bow down and worship God, he will give us all we ask for. Of course, that would be an horrific teaching from the verse I quoted...from Matthew 4:9.

    Now look at James 5:13-18 you can see that the context is about prayer, not about going to a confession booth at a church building and confessing to a catholic priest.

    Are any of you suffering hardships? You should pray. Are any of you happy? You should sing praises. Are any of you sick? You should call for the elders of the church to come and pray over you, anointing you with oil in the name of the Lord. Such a prayer offered in faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will make you well. And if you have committed any sins, you will be forgiven. Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and produces wonderful results. Elijah was as human as we are, and yet when he prayed earnestly that no rain would fall, none fell for three and a half years! Then, when he prayed again, the sky sent down rain and the earth began to yield its crops.
     
  5. Berserk

    Berserk Member

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    Scarlett; "The Bible says that only God can forgive sins...no mortal man or woman can absolve you from your sins."

    Biblically wrong! God requires church leaders (not necessarily priests) to mediate God's word of forgiveness.

    (2) Your comment leads nicely into the intended second couple of Catholic prooftexts overlooked by evangelicals;
    "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven.; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
    (John 20:23)."
    "I will give you [peter] the keys of kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven (Matthew 16:19)."

    Scarlett: 'When I want to confess my sins, I confess to Christ."

    "In open defiance of God's Word which instructs you to also "confess your sins to each other."
     
  6. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    2 Corinthians 2

    10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ


    John 20

    23If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”


    Self explanatory.
     
  7. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Is the Papacy the Antichrist?
    The first written history suggests Arnulf, the archbishop of Reims in the 10th century identified the Papacy as the Antichrist. Later Joachim of Fiore in the 12th century preached the Papacy was the Antichrist. And the archbishop Eberhard II in 1240 also related the papacy to the Antichrist. This led to the martyrdom of many Albigenses, Anabaptists, and others who in part embraced his views. Synopsis of the End Times; A look at the popular beliefs of today by Mike Morrill.

    Here’s an idea I find interesting. Augustine (354 - 430 AD) mentioned about who the coming Antichrist might be. Where Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:4;

    “[Man of sin] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in [Greek = as] the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” (2 Thessalonians 2:4) (KJV 1900)

    Instead of the man of sin sitting in the temple of God, he would sit as the temple of God. Which of course is what the Papacy claims for itself. The Papacy claims to be the one true church. The Church = God’s temple in the NT.

    Says Augustine; “Antichrist means not the prince himself alone, but his whole body, that is, the mass of men who adhere to him, along with him their prince; and they also think that we should render the Greek more exactly were we to read, not “in the temple of God,” but “for” or “as the temple of God,” as if he himself were the temple of God, the Church.1405” NPNF1-02. St. Augustine’s City of God and Christian Doctrine - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

    All of the Reformers believed the Papacy is the Antichrist of Scripture. Following is a list of Reformation-era creeds and others who provide evidence of this.

    “The Antichrist and the Reformation”
    During the time of the Reformation and following, Christians in every English-Baptist, Lutheran or Protestant and Reformed Church, believed the Papacy was the Antichrist. This fact remains embedded in the books and creeds of Christendom to this day. Several examples follow;


    From The Westminster Confession which also with some adjustments became the 1st and 2nd London Baptist Confessions.

    Chapter XXV

    Of the Church
    VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof. but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.

    And from the preface to the Canons of Dort;

    For this Church being by God’s mighty hand set free from the tyranny of the Romish Antichrist, & from the fearful idolatry of Popery.....

    Martin Luther declared, “We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist.” (Aug. 18, 1520). According to The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by LeRoy Froom. Vol. 2., pg. 121.

    I shall briefly show that (Paul’s words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy.” According to Institutes of the Christian Religion, by John Calvin.

    John Knox concluded that the Papacy was “the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks.” The Zurich Letters, by John Knox, pg. 199.

    “Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons.” (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.)

    Works by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7.

    “the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vassals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to change times and laws; but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2).

    Roger Williams (1603-1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America):” The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by Froom, Vol. 3, pg. 52.

    Cotton Mather (1663-1728) (Congregational Theologian): “The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church: and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them.” According to The Fall of Babylon by Cotton Mather in Froom’s book, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 3, pg. 113.

    John Wesley (1703-1791) (Methodist): Speaking of the Papacy, John Wesley wrote, “He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers... He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honour...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone.” Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, by John Wesley, pg. 110.

    A Great Cloud of Witnesses: “Wycliffe, Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer; in the seventeenth century, Bunyan, the translators of the King James Bible and the men who published the Westminster and Baptist confessions of Faith; Sir Isaac Newton, Wesley, Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards; and more recently Spurgeon, Bishop J.C. Ryle and Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones; these men among countless others, all saw the office of the Papacy as the antichrist.” According to All Roads Lead to Rome, by Michael de Semlyen. Dorchestor House Publications, p. 205. 1991.
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The ONLY sins we confess to any besides God are those done against others personally, as we seek their forgiveness!
     
  9. Berserk

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    Your comment overlooks 2 crucial points:
    (1) God's Word teaches us to "confess your sins' (in general) to one another," NOT just your sins against the person you offended. In context James makes it clear that the sins to be confessed include general sins involving "anyone among you" who "wanders from the truth (James 5:19)."
    (2) Jesus teaches that believers (not God alone) have the authority to forgive sins (John 20:23: Matthew 16:19).
    Thus, James offers this clarification of the meaning of confessing sins to each other: they themselves (not just God alone) "will save the sinner's soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins (5:20)." Of course, the priest's role as mediating God's pardon assumes correct discernment of God's will and thus of the sincerity of the confessor.

    As an evangelical, I envy the greater fidelity of Catholics to God's Word in this matter. My own evangelical church (fearing abuse from gossip) admitted neither the need to confess to other believers nor the healing role of a mature listener to offer assurance of forgiveness for sins confessed. In a Mexican restaurant I recently overheard 2 Catholics talking about their recent visit to the confessional. They were discussing how to keep their confession real by discerning sins of omission and sins hidden from their awareness by their ego-driven defense mechanisms. Their priest had recommended books on the pursuit of holiness through honest confession and they were reading them. I was in awe of their childlike pursuit of purity of heart.
     
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Was Martin Luther better off with God as he confessed sin after sin in the monastery so much that the priest kept telling him to stop coming back, or was Luther in a better state when he was freed from guilt via justification by faith alone?
     
  11. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Paul is talking about forgiving people who have wronged you. We MUST do that. We MUST forgive the debts of others as God forgives us.

    BUT, this is NOT talking about our forgiving our enemies and that forgiveness leading to their sins being washed away. We can wash no one's sins away. A priest cannot. A preacher cannot. Having a priest or preacher tell you to say Hail Marys or give to charity or make restitution to someone you have wronged or come to church x-amount of the time does not wash sins away.

    Of course it's self-explanatory. In context. It's Sunday night and the 11 disciples are hiding behind locked doors for fear that they are next.
    • Jesus appears to them in their hiding place, greeted them in peace, and shows them his scars.
    • They are overjoyed to see him.
    • He again gives a greeting of peace and tells them: that God has sent him and he is sending them.
    • He breathes on them and they receive the Holy Spirit.
    • Then he tells them that whoever they forgive is forgiven and whoever they don't forgive is not forgiven.
    Are you telling me that Jesus Christ, the ONLY source of forgiveness gave sinful man the authority to wipe people hearts clean of sin and also send people to hell? That mankind is now the judge of each other? If that's the case - what is Jesus' role now?

    I don't see that. What did these men DO in the book of Acts?? Go around "cleansing" people of sin or judging them hellbound?

    I see NONE of that in the book of Acts. These men preached and introduced people to Jesus Christ and started churches. When God saved people, the 12 [including Matthias] declared them as Christians by evidence of God saving them and vice versa.

    Simon the magician tried to "buy" the gift of the Holy Spirit so that he could do "miracles". Peter told him and told him rightly that his heart was NOT right. He told him to repent and to pray to the LORD for forgiveness. Peter could not take that sin away.

    The apostles could NOT take away any one's sin.
     
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  12. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

    Don't complain about that statement. Say what it means.
     
  13. Berserk

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    (3) REAL PRESENCE OF CHRIST IN HOLY COMMUNION
    "For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them...Whoever eats me will live because of me j(ohn 6;55-57)."

    The distinction between transubstantiation and Real Presence will be ignored for purposes of discussion of John 6.
    Here are 6 Catholic grounds for reading Real Presence into the explanation of the significance of Holy Communion in John 6:
    (1) As noted in commentaries, John shockingly omits the establishment of Holy Communion at the Last Supper (John 13) because he wants to discuss the meaning of Holy Communion here in John 6:53-58.

    (2) John uses the crude verb "trogo" ("munch on") to refer to eating Jesus and eating His flesh to indicate that He is speaking literally, not symbolically, in his implication that Christ is truly present in the sacramental act of eating Communion bread.

    (3) Other than Holy Communion, there is no biblical precedent for the image of munching on Jesus as a reference to anything but Communion bread.

    (4) Jesus is deserted by "many of His disciples" for this cannibalistic-sounding language (6:66). To prevent this mass desertion, all Jesus needs to do is to explain that partaking the bread and wine are merely symbolic actions. But He does not do so precisely because He teaches His Real Presence in this sacramental act.

    (5) Most importantly, He teaches that, because of His Real Presence in this sacramental act, Holy Communion is a vehicle by which participants "abide in Me, and I in them (7;56)." Thus, Ignatius, 1st and early 2nd century bishop of Antioch, can call the Communion elements "the medicine of immortality" and is an important witness to first-century belief in Real Presence in this sacramental act.
     
  14. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    As this thread is veering into RCC Propaganda territory. It is closed.
     
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