Flaws of Arminianism

Am I understanding you right in that you are saying when you refer to "the fallen and sinful race" that you mean that people are sinners only by deeds? But that there is nothing wrong with us in our own actual condition? We are created with a neutral mindset towards God? So it is totally up to us to decide to do the right thing and come to Christ and believe. What do you mean "through the grace of the Holy Spirit believe in him"?

 

What do you believe in regards to mans condition right now? No one is misrepresenting you - you have the floor. Calvinism and Arminianism both teach that there is something wrong with us beyond the fact that we are guilty of having sinned. Calvinism leans towards a belief that man is spiritually dead or at least so impaired that he simply cannot come to Christ without a direct action by the Holy Spirit. Arminianism teaches that man is impaired too much to come to Christ without help from the Holy Spirit. But that the help was given in prevenient grace by God. You say they are both wrong. I know you well enough from these threads to know you don't accept the Calvinist explanation. But I am asking you to explain how the more moderate Arminian position is wrong regarding the working of the Holy Spirit when a person gets saved. That should not be offensive to you. You started the thread.

 

JonC. What is the root of Calvin's error?

 

Guess: God CREATED some vessels for destruction and others for mercy (Romans 9) … intent.

 

So would I be OK in saying that you don't think that Calvinists or Arminians have the atonement right? I do agree with you that you cannot understand a lot of what the Reformers were doing without realizing what was going on with Roman Catholicism.

Is there among Baptists, in your opinion, a teaching that men have enough ability on their own, that upon hearing the gospel, they can respond correctly and come to a saving faith in Christ without any other action being necessary by the Holy Spirit? Does the total work on God's side of things on our behalf involve Christ's death and resurrection and the setting up of the framework whereby we are now free to come to Christ and that all the ability on our part that we need is given to us in creation?

 

Remove "corporate election" for that is not taught in Scripture.

Your thinking concerning 1 Timothy 2:6 disputes Hebrews 9:

27And inasmuch as it is apportioned to men to die once, and after this, judgment, 28so also Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of many, will appear for a second time, apart from sin, to those awaiting Him for salvation.
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Your thinking concerning the source of saving faith is in error, and has been discussed in other threads. If in fact you take the last sentence of the paragraph you wrote ("Thus we are saved by grace through faith and not by the will or actions of men. Ephesians 2:8-9.") as fact then you dispute your own words ("...but only those who God credits their faith in Christ as righteousness...) for you are making faith of some innate human ability expressed sufficiently and of certain quality to garner God's attention in which He may or may not credit sufficiently in Christ as righteousness...

Again, you thinking is in error concerning the adoption of God's child. You place such conditions upon adoption as to make it seem that some believers are not adopted. You take from Scriptures which point to the unconditional adoption of the believer and make it conditional by using the words "after we are alive and have lived without mercy." This is dispute of John 6.

37Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me. 39And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
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I do totally agree with your view of some of the reformers (Luther, Calvin, Arminius...) They wanted to reform the RC not separate from it.

One reason why I do admire the Pilgrims, for they actually had the insight to realize reformation was not necessary when the whole cloth was not worthy, and the nuts were as rotten as old wine skins.

How is that for mixing metaphors.

 

for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death; Rom 8:2

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' Gen 2:7

Is that underlined in Gen 2:17, the law of sin and death, spoken of in Rom 8:2?


Romans 8:3 for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh,

Please remember, before the foundation of the world, whatever that means, redemption in Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, was foreordained.

for we have known that the law (? Thou dost not eat of it?) is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold by the sin; Rom 7:14
Eph 6:12 because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;

Why did God make man, of flesh, with the life/soul thereof, being in the blood?
What was the serpent doing in the garden of God?

I have not read either, Jacob (James) Arminius or John Calvin, did either consider the above.

Que será, será

Did out maker, make Adam and us with the need to be, redeemed as in, Romans 8:23 And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body; - ?

 

I take that it was not just foreordained, but was accomplished. That what we see having taken place on the cross in human time was accomplished in the words "let there be light."

For do not the Scriptures remark that He was slain before the foundations of the world were laid?

 

Jon, this is perhaps the first time, I have read a succinct and specific statement of what you believe about the atonement.
As I study Hebrews 7, Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 9, I am directly faced with the fact that Jesus, as the High Priest, mediated a New Covenant with God and Jesus death was the seal of that mediated covenant between God and all who believe in Jesus sacrifice to secure this New Covenant. It is this securement of a new covenant and the eternal prayer of our mediating High Priest that keeps the wrath of God the Father from consuming us.

Do these verses teach penal substitution? I do not know the answer. However, I do know that Jesus High Priestly mediation and sacrifice is the hinge upon which our salvation swings.

Hebrews 7:22, 25

Because of this oath, Jesus is the one who guarantees this better covenant with God.

Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf.

Hebrews 8:6
But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for he is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises.

Hebrews 8:10-12
But this is the new covenant I will make
with the people of Israel on that day, says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds,
and I will write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
And they will not need to teach their neighbors,
nor will they need to teach their relatives,
saying, ‘You should know the Lord.’
For everyone, from the least to the greatest,
will know me already.
And I will forgive their wickedness,
and I will never again remember their sins.”

Hebrews 9:11-12
So Christ has now become the High Priest over all the good things that have come. He has entered that greater, more perfect Tabernacle in heaven, which was not made by human hands and is not part of this created world. With his own blood—not the blood of goats and calves—he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

Hebrews 9:14-15
Just think how much more the blood of Christ will purify our consciences from sinful deeds so that we can worship the living God. For by the power of the eternal Spirit, Christ offered himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.

Hebrews 9:24-28

For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven. He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf. And he did not enter heaven to offer himself again and again, like the high priest here on earth who enters the Most Holy Place year after year with the blood of an animal. If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice.

And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment, so also Christ was offered once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.

Hebrews 10:9-10
Then he said, “Look, I have come to do your will.” He cancels the first covenant in order to put the second into effect. For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.

Hebrews 10:12-14
But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God’s right hand. There he waits until his enemies are humbled and made a footstool under his feet. For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy.

 

Those who preach prevenient grace do that very thing, for they teach that the human is placed in such a state of innocence that human volition is involved. This is not only unsupported by Scriptures but is an affront to the work of the Holy Spirit's quickening.

I agree, and I consider this thinking is also found in the early church within the Victorious Christ and the Ransom teaching (not payment made, but sufficiency in meeting God's standard of righteousness and therefore authority to take and keep all the Father gives Him).

Here we can disagree, for I see the opposite. I see God choosing a single person and enabling them by fulfilling certain promise made to them. He specifically made Adam, then from Adam made Eve. He specifically claimed Seth. He specifically claimed Noah. Specifically claimed Abraham, Moses, Joshua, various judges, David, not Solomon but Nathan, ...

From the one came the grouping.

He called each believer, and endowed each with that specific measure of faith to carry out that commission to the local church that was needed.

When the Scriptures tell of election and predestination, it is with the inclusion of "us" in the grouping of the local church, not an "us" as all believers world wide.

That does not mean that there is not a single Bride, but that there is a difference in the way the two are addressed.

For example, John said, "...not only for us (individual believers) but all the world..." Should corporate or group be first elect, then John certainly would have had to rephrase that statement from God.

So, there is agreement, yet issues.

 

Wouldn’t that be the Wesleyan Holiness movement within a Baptist framework? Christ purchases prevenient grace. Men are now free to accept or reject. Que up Billy Graham.

 

Pardon the confusion, but WHAT did the Reformers get wrong, then?