Reasoning Together

You aren’t, but we are. Jesus flesh is real food and blood real drink.

If the Eucharist isn’t Jesus, then in no way is it Covenant Communion. It’s play acting.
In the Eucharist, Jesus fulfills His promise to be with us, and with us He is.

 

For Catholics Jesus is our personal Lord and Saviour and He comes to us in Person in the Eucharist.

If it’s just bread and wine, these have no life. But being Jesus Himself, He is Pure Life, Eternal Life.

 

So...cannibalism...
You just can't get around that fact if you are taking it literally.

I have no idea how you jump to this conclusion. If the Seder isn't the actual Passover is it in no way a remembrance of the Passover?

Jesus is always with us, regardless of celebrating communion or taking a walk in the neighborhood. Jesus is always present because the Spirit of God dwells within us. That's not play acting. That's having faith...seeing the evidence of that which is unseen. When we remember Christ in the bread and the juice, we do what he said..."Do this in remembrance of me."

Do you doubt Jesus promise if you miss communion? Do you think he isn't really present with you at all the other times when you aren't celebrating communion? Is your faith that weak?

 

No, it goes well beyond cannibalism, to true Covenant. Because it is receiving Jesus in His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, His entire Person. And we give ourselves entirely to Him in exchange Body and Soul.
Covenant is the complete exchange of Persons, not just in Spirit, but in Truth as well.

Remembrance is the English word we use that does not fully convey the meaning of “being present” in the Israelite sense.
That is why there is only One Passover where all throughout time are present.
That is why there is only One Eucharistic sacrifice where all through out time are Present.

Other times Jesus is with us only in Spirit, but at the renewal of the Covenant, Jesus is with us in Spirit and in Truth, He comes to us Personally.
We still need great faith because the Eucharist only appears to be bread, but we recognise the Lord at the breaking of the bread.
We come to Him not just in Spirit but with Body and Spirit our entire self, and He comes to us with His entire Self, Body and Spirit. And we abide with Him in Love and He with us, in Spirit and in Truth.

The Lord invites all to this feast, many will make their excuses and be replaced by others, and many others will not have the garment of Faith to attend and be sent off. They will not recognise the Lord at the breaking of the Bread, they do not believe.

 

Perhaps you missed the grasp of Covenant making shown in Hebrews 9:24-28.
You actually deny what it says when the Covenant says Christ died...once...and for the many.
Yet you require his death over and over again, like the never perfect Old Covenant of Moses and the imperfect priests. Don't go back to that which cannot save you.

Hebrews 9:15-28

That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant. Now when someone leaves a will, it is necessary to prove that the person who made it is dead. The will goes into effect only after the person’s death. While the person who made it is still alive, the will cannot be put into effect. That is why even the first covenant was put into effect with the blood of an animal. For after Moses had read each of God’s commandments to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, along with water, and sprinkled both the book of God’s law and all the people, using hyssop branches and scarlet wool. Then he said, “This blood confirms the covenant God has made with you.” And in the same way, he sprinkled blood on the Tabernacle and on everything used for worship. In fact, according to the law of Moses, nearly everything was purified with blood. For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. That is why the Tabernacle and everything in it, which were copies of things in heaven, had to be purified by the blood of animals. But the real things in heaven had to be purified with far better sacrifices than the blood of animals. For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven. He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf. And he did not enter heaven to offer himself again and again, like the high priest here on earth who enters the Most Holy Place year after year with the blood of an animal. If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice. And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment, so also Christ died once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.

 

It is the New Testament documents themselves. And they being the word from God though His Apostles and first century church prophets has placed (Ehpesians 2:20) as His church's foundation, true believers being His temple being the one body.

 

There is only one sacrifice, there is no re-sacrifice only the same sacrifice made present in time for people.

So your point is based on completely false assumptions.

 

Scripture isn’t self interpreting. Look at all the “ Bible alone “ traditions, do they all have the same interpretation of scripture, no. Thousands of conflicted interpretations.

If they did have the same interpretation of scripture, then your point could be made. As it is, you are holding to something that is manifestly false.

 

The Eucharist is the New and Everlasting Covenant with Christ. All Scripture points to this Covenant exchange of Persons, it is the entire point of Scripture. It would be strange to read scripture all your lives, and then fail to take part in the New Covenant Feast.

It’s got to be the greatest of missed opportunities known to man.

 

I've always thought the teaching that one can lose their salvation can come dangerously close to works righteousness, and I do believe due to this teaching that many do fall into this camp.

 

My point is still the same. You never have Jesus sacrifice, once and for all. Instead, Jesus is perpetually on the tree, never fully having atoned for sin. You can never have full assurance of atonement as your salvation is tied to the performance of various actions prescribed by Rome. Rome destroys grace and replaces it with human works required in order to keep being saved.

Rome pictures Jesus as though he were the Olympic flame that one must always come back to when your flame goes out.
The thing is...that is not what the Bible teaches.
Jesus died once and for the many. He arose once and for the many. He tells us to remember, not to keep him in perpetual dying on the tree.

 

Since the Scriptures that make up the 66 books are the word of God, they are self authenticating. The Apostle John wrote, ". . . If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater . . . ." If that statement is true, by it being true it is authenticated. If it is not true, it is not authenticated.

 

Cathode, the problem here is that Roman Catholicism tend to be a shell game as you show on your posts here. The above statement is OK by me. Unfortunately, it happens to be true that you can find plenty of explanation by Catholic priests that the mass "reaches up into the heavens, brings Christ down from his throne, and places Him upon our alter to be offered yet again as the Victim for the sins of man". According to you it's literal, then spiritual, then a representation of the covenant. Elsewhere you claim "for Catholics Jesus is our personal Lord and Savior and he comes to us in the Eucharist". Personal Lord and Savior is a new one to come from Catholics and it shows the shell game the Catholic church engages in. That sounds more like what you would hear from a Campus Crusade worker (I guess Cru nowadays).

This is a Baptist board, not an episode of "Coming Home" and this is not the subject of the OP. Start your own thread and we can continue. You have successfully shown that Catholics engage in a lot of private interpretation themselves. Add to that the constantly building superstition, idolatry and corruption and you have the disaster that people see today.

 

At least it's good to see someone interested in the original post. So, with the age old question - if you have someone who says they were saved and doesn't show a changed life what do you think is going on?

 

The Eucharist is the Life of the Church, it is Jesus Himself come in the Flesh with all His Grace to give Life to us personally.

I hope you don’t treat your marriage covenants like that with one off unions. The flame will go out, I assure you.

Jesus is Risen and ascended into Heaven, we could not “ keep him in perpetual dying on the tree “ even if we wanted to. A total nonsense argument.

At the Eucharist we are drawn to Christ on the same Cross at the same Sacrifice.

“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”

In the Eucharist Jesus draws us through time and space to that One Holy Sacrifice and men yet unborn will be drawn to Him through the Eucharist, this very same way. “ All men to myself “ . Down the ages.

Baptist’s may remain here in time and merely remember, but Catholic’s are drawn to be present with Jesus at that one Sacrifice.

 

I would say there are multiple factors - is this individual a new convert, and if so are they being properly discipled?
Now if they have been professing Christ for a while, and there is no change in their life, they walk in sin without any conviction I would say that they are likely a false convert. As the Holy Spirit changes the believers heart, and as a result in growing in love for God they leave their sin and live to please Him.

 

The witness was the witness of God, through the Tradition of The Holy Spirit handed down father to son in the Catholic Church.

Protestants find themselves in possession of a book they neither determined or authenticated, they did not exist the thousand years that preceded them when this was done.
Having no history they have to create a mythology the Bible authenticated itself, and then say the Bible interprets itself, which is manifestly false.

 

I understand that being how you believe. My belief is in the New Testament bring the sole Apostolic authority. Not any man's church. You had already wrote a denial of the self authenticating written word of God. Your claimed church misinterprets Jesus' teaching in John 3:5 to mean baptism, which is not Jesus' teaching there.

 

You are not one of those guys telling me that Bible fell from the sky in 1611 and no human agency was used at any stage?

Does anyone else possess a copy of this New Testament thing you keep talking about, or only you?

Do you see my point dude? How is your interpretive tradition superior to anyone else’s. Especially the ancient Apostolic Churches that authenticated the scriptures and determined the Canon itself more than thousand years before any Protestant or Baptist walked the earth.

 

Tell me where this exact idea is taught in the Bible. Certainly Jesus did not say this. In fact, the way you present it, you can only get it from your church tradition, not the Bible.
The celebration of communion is in remembrance of what Christ did. (Mathew 26:26 and Luke 22:19)
Jesus, is in Heaven. Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit to be with us until He returns. This is Jesus teaching. We have eternal life. We do not have to keep performing works to keep getting it back again.

I was married once and for all. I and my wife do not have to keep going back to that church and keep being remarried everytime we argue. Our marriage doesn't end because we don't continually go through the marriage ceremony. That one event sealed our relationship. It is holy. We now remember it with anniversary dinners, but we don't keep going back to get remarried.

Agreed, so stop doing your nonsense by imagining you have to keep going back to get more "spirit energy" via your ceremony. You have taken what is holy and merged it into a pagan idea of spirit energy by eating the energy and life source of a greater power. It's pure animism.

No, you are not. Jesus died 2000 years ago. You are not mystically brought back to the cross at Golgotha. That is pure paganism.

Indeed, from every nation, tribe, and tongue.

Pagan tradition of Rome.
Jesus chooses his own based on those whom the Father has given him. Read John 10.

You have embraced a mystical paganism, best expressed by Marvel Studios with their Dr Strange movies where a portal is created by which people pass into various dimensions.
Your church has abandoned God's word and embraced pagan mysticism and animism. Flee!