Featured The Bearer of Sin and Guilt

Well of course, but that is not the veil of the tabernacle / temple now was it.

There are those who look at this verse in Hebrews and consider that the opening is the piercing wound in which both water and blood flowed.

I don't care, all I care is that our Savior opened the way that we may boldly, as did the High Priest, make out way to the very presence of God and make appeal.

 

I'm just going to interject this and watch from a distance, no need getting in this donnybrook... Brother Glen

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Now you know my position!

 

"agedman,
[QUOTE]Now, concerning your specific statements:
Why did He Suffer. Because the prophets stated that He would.[/QUOTE]

The prophets said he would suffer does not answer the question...WHY.
Once again you avoid it at all costs.

[QUOTE]That is one of the signs of the messiah. The Jews of this day think that perhaps there will be two - one who suffers and one who becomes the ruling kind. Fits right in with the prophetic statements concerning their agreement with the antichrist of the last days.[/QUOTE]

This has nothing to do with the topic. This nonsense about an agreement with the supposed antichrist is complete nonsense and off topic.

What verse are you speaking of? He came just to suffer? Suffer for what?
Suffer for who?

Of course? in what way? Your statement is incomplete. You are responding but not answering anything...I know why.

Yes, but you never, not once have explained it.
What was He going to say and do?

 

@Iconoclast,

Do you agree that the Scriptures are the final authority? Of course you do. So do I

Look at the most detailed presentation of the very thoughts of our Saviour while he was on the cross.

It is the whole of Psalms 22.

I really am interested if you can find support for the thinking God pour wrath out upon the Son.

Please come back with evidence from that Psalm.

We’ve already been threw Isaiah multiple time, chased around Deuteronomy, Romans, Hebrews, Colossians, Galatians, the gospels, Acts, and more.

Not a single passage declares God poured His wrath out upon the Son nor the Sin the Son carried.

So, If you want to present something new, find it,and especially in Psalm 22.

Christ suffered as Peter and Isaiah and other places at the hands of vile ungodly people. That isn’t in question.

Christ bore the sins, carried them, even the Scriptures state “became sin” for us.. that isn’t in question.

Drive safely, and I’ll look for your post.

 

agedman

25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Do you see this? vs 28 identifies God as the one who determined what would be done. The evil acts were determined to take place for a reason.

 

I don’t disagree with Peter, where did you get the thinking I did?

What I want to know is if all your side tracking you actually found evidence from Scripture that God’s wrath was poured out upon the Son.

Our Saviour made a promise to one of the thieves. He was hanging on a tree, too. Did God pour out His Wrath upon Him?

How about Peter, He hung on a tree, and what about all the people Nero suspended to light up, did God pour Wrath upon them, too.

I’m looking for consistency in your presentation thinking.

You claim that I make stuff up.

So, it is your turn, Don’t make anything up, and show specifically we’re the Scriptures state God pour wrath upon the Son.

 

Which is EXACTLY what @JonC and I have said all along.

Humankind tortured and hung the Saviour, Not God, yet it pleased Him. Why.

Because just as the OT sacrifice pleased Him and brought temporary reconciliation, the Lord brought permanent perfect and pure sacrifice that Satisfied the decrees against believers.

God did not pour His wrath out upon the Son.

Psalms 22 shows such thinking is wrong.

 

22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

verse22 is quoted in Hebrews2;
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

It was a Covenant death.....He took upon Him the seed of Abraham, not the seed of Adam.

 

@Aaron

I’m concerned that you think i made stuff up concerning the OT sacrifice.

I’ll refresh your memory and then you can look for yourself, too.

the High Priest atonement garment had a series of bells with a seed between each bell sown into the bottom of the rob.

it would jingle as he walked. He also had a rope tied to his foot.

if he went behind the vail and was onworthy or the blood was impure, the priest would be struck down dead.

other priests holding on to the end of the rope would listen for the sound of the bells. If they stoped ringing for an extended amount of time they would pull the dead priest out and half to wait another year before trying again.

 

I don’t see anything in your presentation that either @JonC ot I would disagree.

It is consistent with what we both have presented.

What is also evident from what you have posted is the lack of God pouring out His Wrath upon the Son. It isn’t even hinted or portrayed in any terms.

 

agedman,

No...you deny this...28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Do you see this? vs 28 identifies God as the one who determined what would be done. The evil acts were determined to take place for a reason.

What decrees against believers? be specific. You cannot because you know the answer destroys the false ideas you are posting.

So what happened to Gods wrath against the sins, each one believers commit? You have not answered this on 5 threads now.

You totally miss it once again....
Humankind did not have a law that had to be paid, or have people to be bought, redeemed.

 

@Iconoclast

your not driving are you?

I sometimes am concerned you might get distracted by the interactions.

 

The Seven Sayings of the Savior

First, the death of Christ was natural. By this we mean that it was a real death. It is because we are so familiar with the fact of it that the above statement appears simple and commonplace, yet what we here touch upon is to the spiritual mind one of the main elements of wonderment. The One who was "taken, and by wicked hands" crucified and slain was none less than Immanuel (Act 2:23). The One who died on Calvary's Cross was none other than Jehovah's "fellow" (Zechariah 13:7). The blood that was shed on the accursed tree was divine—"The church of God which he purchased with his own blood" (Act 20:28). As says the apostle, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" (2 Corinthians 5:19).

But how could Jehovah's "fellow" suffer? How could the eternal One die? Ah, He who in the beginning was the Word, who was with God, and who was God, "became flesh." He who was in the form of God took upon Him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men; "and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Phi 2:8). Thus having become incarnate, the Lord of glory was capable of suffering death, and so it was that He "tasted" death itself. In His words, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit," we see how natural His death was. The reality of it became still more apparent when He was laid in the tomb, where He remained for three days.

Third, the death of Christ was preternatural. By this we mean that it was marked out and determined for Him beforehand. He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8). Before Adam was created, the Fall was anticipated. Before sin entered the world, salvation from it had been planned by God. In the eternal counsels of Deity, it was fore-ordained that there should be a Savior for sinners, a Savior Who should suffer, the Just for the unjust, a Savior Who should die in order that we might live. And "because there was none other good enough to pay the price for sin," the only-Begotten of the Father offered Himself as the Ransom.

The preternatural character of the death of Christ has been well termed the "undergirding of the Cross." It was in view of that approaching death that God "justly passed over the sins done aforetime" (Rom 3:25 R.V.) Had not Christ been, in the reckoning of God, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, every sinning person in the Old Testament times would have gone down to the Pit the moment he sinned!

 

Moreover, on the Cross He was acting as our substitute: the Just was about to die for the unjust. Hence it was that, hanging there as our representative,

3. Here we see the divine estimate of sin and its consequent guilt. Under the Levitical economy God required that atonement should be made for sins of ignorance. "If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the Lord; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the Lord a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with your estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering: And he shall make amends for the harm that he has done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him" (Lev 5:15-16). And again we read, "And if you have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the Lord has spoken unto Moses, even all that the Lord has commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the Lord commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations; Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savor unto the Lord, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the Lord, and their sin offering before the Lord, for their ignorance" (Num 15:22-25). It is in view of such Scriptures as these that we find David prayed, "Cleanse you me from secret faults" (Psalm 19:12).

Sin is always sin in the sight of God—whether we are conscious of it or not. Sins of ignorance need atonement just as truly as do conscious sins. God is holy, and He will not lower His standard of righteousness to the level of our ignorance. Ignorance is not innocence. As a matter of fact, ignorance is more culpable now than it was in the days of Moses. We have no excuse for our ignorance. God has clearly and fully revealed His will. The Bible is in our hands, and we cannot plead ignorance of its contents except to condemn our laziness. God has spoken, and by His Word we shall be judged.

 

Just as JonC and I have stated.

We have repeatedly pointed out that the predetermined council of the trinity agreed and even the Lord said, “Fortnis reason I came…”

What is not supported is that God pour His wrath out upon the Son. That is not Scripturally sound.

There was nothing much concerning the crucifixion that was hidden from prophecy.


I think you missed this from either an earlier thread and posting:

13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

​

My answer does not destroy my thinking and presentation.

To answer your question about what happens to Gods wrath.

5After this I looked, and the temple—the tabernacle of the Testimony—was opened in heaven. 6And out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues, dressed in clean and bright linen and girded with golden sashes around their chests.7Then one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever. 8And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.


1Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out on the earth the seven bowls of God’s wrath.”2So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and loathsome, malignant sores broke out on those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.3And the second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it turned to blood like that of the dead, and every living thing in the sea died.4And the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and springs of water, and they turned to blood. 5And I heard the angel of the waters say:

“Righteous are You, O Holy One,

who is and was,

because You have brought these judgments.6For they have spilled the blood of saints and prophets,

and You have given them blood to drink,

as they deserve.”7And I heard the altar reply:

“Yes, Lord God Almighty,

true and just are Your judgments.”8Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was given power to scorch the people with fire. 9And the people were scorched by intense heat, and they cursed the name of God, who had authority over these plagues; yet they did not repent and give Him glory.10And the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness, and men began to gnaw their tongues in anguish 11and curse the God of heaven for their pains and sores; yet they did not repent of their deeds.12And the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings of the East.13And I saw three unclean spirits that looked like frogs coming out of the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 14These are demonic spirits that perform signs and go out to all the kings of the earth, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.15“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed.”16And they assembled the kings in the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.17Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came from the throne in the temple, saying, “It is done!”18And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake. 19The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath.20Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found. 21And great hailstones weighing almost a hundred pounds eacha rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous.

​

 

The second all-important lesson which all need to learn is how forgiveness of sins may be obtained. What is the ground on which a Holy God will forgive sins? And here it is important to remark that there is a vital difference between divine forgiveness and much of human forgiveness. As a general rule, human forgiveness is a matter of leniency, often of laxity. We mean forgiveness is shown at the expense of justice and righteousness. In a human court of law, the judge has to choose between two alternatives: when the one in the dock has been proven guilty, the judge must either enforce the penalty of the law, or he must disregard the requirements of the law—the one is justice, the other is mercy. The only possible way by which the judge can both enforce the requirements of the law and yet show mercy to its offender, is by a third party offering to suffer in his own person the penalty which the convicted one deserves.
Thus it was in the divine counsels. God would not exercise mercy at the expense of justice. God, as the Judge of all the earth, would not set aside the demands of His holy Law. Yet, God would show mercy. How? through One making full satisfaction to His outraged Law. Through His own Son taking the place of all those who believe on Him and bearing their sins in His own body on the tree. God could be just and yet merciful, merciful and yet just. Thus it is that "grace reigns through righteousness."

 

The bowl judgements have nothing to do with PSA.