Featured Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated

Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated (Romans 9:13)

Probably the most used verse by the Reformed/Calvinist, to “prove”, that God loves the “elect”, and hates those who are the “non-elect”. It is clear when left in the context, that it says no such thing!

“For being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls, it was said to her, “The elder will serve the younger.” Even as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? May it never be! For he said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy” (verses 11-16)

I would like any who believe this, to show that this passage teaches “Divine election to salvation”? It is very clear to those who don't read this, indeed the entire chapters 9-11, from the Reformed/Calvinist, perspective, that Paul is here discussing God's CHOOSING of Jacob over Easu, even though Jacob is the younger brother. This is the “ἐκλογή (election)”, which basically means, “the act of picking out, choosing” (Thayer), which Paul here means. Further, Paul even tells us what this “Choice” of God is, “The elder will serve the younger”, something that is not usually done in Jewish families. See what Paul actually says, “the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls, it was said to her, “The elder will serve the younger.”. Clear contest speaks of SERVING, and nothing to do with any “Divine election to salvation”, which is forced into this passage! Even the words that follow, ““I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy”, are about this CHOICE of God in PREFERRING Jacob over Esau, in SERVING, which is exactly what happened in the Account in Genesis. There is nothing in Genesis that says anything about God “electing Jacob to salvation”, because He loved him, and hated Esau!

What about the Bible saying, that God hates Esau? Can this be used to say that God actually “hates” those who will never be saved?

The Greek verb used here, is “μισέω”, where the original meaning is “to dislike”, and not “to detest”. It is also used in “preference”, where one person is “preferred” to another. This use of the word is very clear in the passage in Genesis 29, where we read: “When the LORD saw that Leah was hated (μισέω), he opened her womb, but Rachel was barren” (verse 31). Verse 30 tells actually defines this Greek word perfectly, “So Jacob went in to Rachel also, and he loved Rachel more than Leah, and served Laban for another seven years”. Clearly, Jacob did not “hate or detest” Leah, but that he “preferred” Rachel to her! Jesus says in the Gospels, “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate (μισέω) his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple” (Luke 14:26). Jesus is not saying that we are to “detest”, our own families, but, rather, to love Him MORE than anyone, or anything else!. We can see this is John 21, where Jesus says to Peter, “"Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these others do?" "Yes, Master," was his answer; "you know that you are dear to me” (verse 15). Not, do you “hate and detest” the others!

The Second of the Greatest Commandment that Jesus give us, is: “The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these”. If God Incarnate tells us to “love” our neighbour, which is basically our fellow-human, then how can He literally “hate” Esau, or the “non-elect”? In Matthew 5:43-44, again Jesus says, ““You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you”. Would Jesus tell us to love our enemies, and yet He Himself does not? In Mark 10:17, we read of the man who asked Jesus, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”. There is not indication in any of the Gospel Accounts, that this man was ever saved, nor that he is “elect”. Yet, in verse 21, Mark says, “Jesus looking at him LOVED him, and said to him, “One thing you lack. Go, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me, taking up the cross.” The same Greek word, “ἀγαπάω”, that is used in John 3:16!

“For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life” (NLT)

There are some, who, for theological reasons, argue that God's love here is limited to His “elect”, and take “τὸν κόσμονn (the world)”, to mean this. Let us say, for the sake of argument, that here “τὸν κόσμον”, does mean only the “elect”. To paraphrase this, “for God greatly loves the elect, that He gave His Unique Son, that anyone from this elect believes in Him, shall not be lost, but have eternal life”. This says, that there will be some, who are part of this “elect world”, who will actually be lost! This is clear from verse 18, that says “they who believe is not condemned, but they who don’t believe are already condemned”. Can this really all be true for the “elect”? It is absurd to think this is what the passage is saying! It would have been much easier, and clearer, if John wrote, “For God so loves the ἐκλεκτός…”; or, “For God so loves the ἐκλεκτός κόσμος…”. There can be no doubt, that contextually, “τὸν κόσμον”, can only mean, “the entire human race”. Or, as John Calvin says, “EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION”. Note, that he does not use the Calvinistic term, “EVERYONE WITHOUT DISTINCTION”.

Interestingly, we don’t see Psalm 106:40-43 quoted by the Reformed/Calvinist, in the discussion about God “hating”. This verse says, “Therefore Yahweh burned with anger against His people. He abhorred (תּעב, to detest) His inheritance. He gave them into the hand of the nations. Those who hated them ruled over them. Their enemies also oppressed them. They were brought into subjection under their hand. He rescued them many times, but they were rebellious in their counsel, and were brought low in their iniquity”. This is God’s own People, His Inheritance, His Elect Nation, the Children of Israel!

When we allow the Bible to speak for Itself, without forcing our theology into what it means, it is clear that GOD LOVES THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE WITH A SAVING LOVE!

 

I see as usual you can't respond to the OP from the Bible

 

only when a Calvinist reads it!

I have read this Book many times over the years, and I am not a Calvinist!

The Book of Jonah is against Calvinism, and teaches that God also loves those who are the non-elect, as Israel were in the OT, and yet He chooses to save a wicked people, in the city of Nineveh!

Jonah the Calvinist:

"But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was angry. He prayed to Yahweh, and said, “Please, Yahweh, wasn’t this what I said when I was still in my own country? Therefore I hurried to flee to Tarshish, for I knew that you are a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and abundant in loving kindness, and you relent of doing harm. Therefore now, Yahweh, take, I beg you, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live.” Yahweh said, “Is it right for you to be angry? (Chapter 4-1-4)

God Who Loves Universally:

"Shouldn’t I be concerned for Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred twenty thousand persons who can’t discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much livestock?” (4:11)

 

same lame non responses!

 

not to the human mind, but according to God's Plans and Pusposes!

 

you mean reformed/calvinists? they would! Jesus disagrees

Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.

 

everyone (I use this in the Calvinitic sense ) who believes that Jesus Christ Died only for the "elect", should be honest when preaching and witnessing, and tell those present, I have really GREAT NEWS for all of you, Jesus Christ Died only for the "elect", that is, a very small minority of you, and only these can really be saved, the rest will end up in hell, as you can do nothing about this! Not to preach what you believe, is not being honest!

 

are you definitely a "Calvinist", or just appearing to be one?

 

you said in #15

You could tell them that if you feel conviction and feel that God is calling you to repentance and have now started feeling that what we say about Jesus being a savior to those who come to him is true - you can come. He is inviting you.

this is not the language that a Reformed/Calvinist would use! You talk about God INVITING, and FEELING of conviction. Sounds like the opposite camp!