Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Are atonement and salvation synonymns?
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Calvinism is Internally Inconsistent
- Thread starter Guido
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EXACTLY!!!
Icon's argument for decades has been it is not "what is written" but what Scripture "teaches" when "properly understood"....and he "tests" this against what he believes is "taught" by Scripture "when properly understood". He reaches to Reformrd nooks and confessions to "prove" Reformed teaching is correct.
I was starting to think that I was the only one seeing his circular reasoning.
It does not matter how consistent their philosophy is if it fails the test of Scripture.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You really need to get a new bible if you think that on one seeks God. And please don't go with Rom 3:11 as a proof text. I have already gone over these verses and shown they are a Midrash, but you ignore that because it does not help your theological viewpoint.
You require that God just grabs you and drags you into His kingdom even though you do not like His son or want anything to do with Him Then God forces you to believe so you will. What you believe, as a calvinist, does not sound like the God who is love or reflect the image of Christ Jesus that we see in the bible.
You can hold to that view and I will hold to the one that is found in scripture.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
They have been pointed out to calvinists many times on various posts yet all we get is, you do not understand calvivnism.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
- Jesus committed no sin. But men esteemed Him as afflicted by God.
- He was abused. He did not return the abuse but put His trust in God and God's righteousness.
- Jesus bore our sins in His body on the Cross, He became a curse for us.
- The reason was so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.
- The cross was God reconciling man to Himself. Man is reconciled to God through Christ's death and men are saved through His life.
- Our salvation is God's righteousness manifested apart from the law.
- Men must be born again, made new creations, dead to the flesh and born of the Spirit. God is just and the justifier of sinners.
Salvation men are saved through His life.
You do realize that the death of Christ Jesus does not save us. We have to trust in the risen Christ, notice the words, we have to trust. No one can or does trust for us. That includes God.
1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
1Co 15:14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
He is a God of love, he is also a God of wrath, justice, mercy, etc. So stop just isolating one of his attributes. And yeah I heard your ridiculous position on Romans 3:11 and it doesn't hold water.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Because you don't. You guys have argued that Calvinism teaches things Calvinism doesn't teach so yeah of course we are going to say you don't understand because you have proven that you don't. You aslo don't understand Scripture.
Silverhair,
Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied. Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. ...
people have examined it and come up with many ideas.
There is one truth and that is the truth revealed by God in scripture, and in the Person of Jesus;
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
The confessional churches agree Calvinism in terms of salvation is the truth of God.
They may differ on eschatology, and ecclesiology but on soteriology they are in biblical agreement.
SH, there is one truth that has been delivered to the saints over a 1600year period.
Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied. Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. ...
people have examined it and come up with many ideas.
There is one truth and that is the truth revealed by God in scripture, and in the Person of Jesus;
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
The confessional churches agree Calvinism in terms of salvation is the truth of God.
They may differ on eschatology, and ecclesiology but on soteriology they are in biblical agreement.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I do not isolate just one of His attributes as you like to say, but on the other hand I do not ignore them either as some seem to think they should do so as to support their theology.
It really does not matter if you agree with me on Rom 3:11 or not as it does not support your position as it is what it is a Midrash. Your becoming a one trick pony.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Oh, I understand enough about calvinism to know that it has some serious errors. You are so close to it that you can't see the forest for the trees. Step back and look at what your theology requires, follow it through to it's logical conclusion.
Think about this honestly, do not just react.
Why do most Christians reject Calvinism
There are only two possible answers to this question
1] If Calvinism is an error:
The reason most Christians resist it is because they have good discernment
2] If Calvinism is true:
The ultimate reason most resist it is because God sovereignly and unchangeably decreed their resistance for His own glory.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
How does it being a Midrash change the meaning of the text. It doesn't. That is what Paul was inspired to write.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
What you call confessional churches would not happen to be calvinist would they? Because most churches do not think that the calvinist version of salvation is correct. And the bible does not agree with the calvinist version of salvation.
The calvinist God drags people to Himself forces them to believe in His son and you say that is biblical? Come on, you know the bible does not say that but you have to go along with it because your confessions require it.
How can I expect you to understand the bible when you cannot even understand the confessions you support. You do not even see the contradictions in them.
JonC,
JonC has finally come out of his theological closet to reveal he has no affinity for truth. His false claims are being exposed one by one, so he attacks those who have offered correction.
jonc CLAIMED to be a calvinist, but no Calvinist ever mistook JonC for one, No Calvinist,and in fact no solid bible believer would claim what JonC posted here
Many have offered help to him, Biblicist, Reformed, Archangel, TC,SG, P4T, Reformed Baptist, Lk24, MM ,Aaron tyndale kyred and RM among others
His false claims {which he is free to make} have unraveled and the wheels have come off his theological wagon.
He cannot grasp that a person...Calvinists and other solid believers can believe what is written, and at the same time
have come to understand what the teaching of the verses is.
JonC believes he is as the acended masters, he is not like other men, reformers, puritans, pastors and teachers, noHe claims the HE has matured beyond them and now he attempts to speak down to'all other mere mortals.no one understands but him evidently.
Here JONC shows the contempt and disdain he has for real bible pastors and teachers.
Sad really.
What does JonC offer instead? Error, His own failed ideas, partial verses weaved together out of context, and his own philosophical novelties, denying spiritual death, PSA, the Spirit illuminated truths, bible teachers as in Neh8:8
..
JonC has finally come out of his theological closet to reveal he has no affinity for truth. His false claims are being exposed one by one, so he attacks those who have offered correction.
jonc CLAIMED to be a calvinist, but no Calvinist ever mistook JonC for one, No Calvinist,and in fact no solid bible believer would claim what JonC posted here
This is anti biblical nonsense posted by JonC
Many have offered help to him, Biblicist, Reformed, Archangel, TC,SG, P4T, Reformed Baptist, Lk24, MM ,Aaron tyndale kyred and RM among others
His false claims {which he is free to make} have unraveled and the wheels have come off his theological wagon.
He cannot grasp that a person...Calvinists and other solid believers can believe what is written, and at the same time
have come to understand what the teaching of the verses is.
JonC believes he is as the acended masters, he is not like other men, reformers, puritans, pastors and teachers, noHe claims the HE has matured beyond them and now he attempts to speak down to'all other mere mortals.no one understands but him evidently.
Here JONC shows the contempt and disdain he has for real bible pastors and teachers.
Sad really.
What does JonC offer instead? Error, His own failed ideas, partial verses weaved together out of context, and his own philosophical novelties, denying spiritual death, PSA, the Spirit illuminated truths, bible teachers as in Neh8:8
"Silverhair,
[QUOTE]What you call confessional churches would not happen to be calvinist would they?[/QUOTE]
Set aside the labels for a moment, tell me if you agree with this confessional statement
Chapter 1: Of the Holy Scriptures 1._____ The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased. ( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1- 3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19,20 )
2._____Under the name of Holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the books of the Old and New Testaments, which are these: OF THE OLD TESTAMENT: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, I Samuel, II Samuel, I Kings, II Kings, I Chronicles, II Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, The Song of Solomen, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations,Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi OF THE NEW TESTAMENT: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, The Acts of the Apostles, Paul's Epistle to the Romans, I Corinthians, II Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians, I Timothy, II Timothy, To Titus, To Philemon, The Epistle to the Hebrews, Epistle of James, The first and second Epistles of Peter, The first, second, and third Epistles of John, The Epistle of Jude, The Revelation All of which are given by the inspiration of God, to be the rule of faith and life. ( 2 Timothy 3:16)
3._____ The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the canon or rule of the Scripture, and, therefore, are of no authority to the church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved or made use of than other human writings. ( Luke 24:27, 44; Romans 3:2 )
4._____ The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself), the author thereof; therefore it is to be received because it is the Word of God. ( 2 Peter 1:19-21; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 John 5:9 )
5._____We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church of God to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scriptures; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, and the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, and many other incomparable excellencies, and entire perfections thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth, and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts. ( John 16:13,14; 1 Corinthians 2:10-12; 1 John 2:20, 27)
6._____The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word, and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed. ( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Galatians 1:8,9; John 6:45; 1 Corinthians 2:9-12; 1 Corinthians 11:13, 14; 1 Corinthians 14:26,40)
7._____All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of ordinary means, may attain to a sufficient understanding of them. ( 2 Peter 3:16; Psalms 19:7; Psalms 119:130)
8._____The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them. But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have a right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded in the fear of God to read and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come, that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship him in an acceptable manner, and through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may have hope. ( Romans 3:2; Isaiah 8:20; Acts 15:15; John 5:39; 1 Corinthians 14:6, 9, 11, 12, 24, 28; Colossians 3:16 )
9._____The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself; and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched by other places that speak more clearly. ( 2 Peter 1:20, 21; Acts 15:15, 16)
10.____The supreme judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit, into which Scripture so delivered, our faith is finally resolved. ( Matthew 22:29, 31, 32; Ephesians 2:20; Acts 28:23)
Which thing did they get wrong SH? What would you say differently?
[QUOTE]What you call confessional churches would not happen to be calvinist would they?[/QUOTE]
Set aside the labels for a moment, tell me if you agree with this confessional statement
Chapter 1: Of the Holy Scriptures 1._____ The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased. ( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1- 3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19,20 )
2._____Under the name of Holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the books of the Old and New Testaments, which are these: OF THE OLD TESTAMENT: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, I Samuel, II Samuel, I Kings, II Kings, I Chronicles, II Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, The Song of Solomen, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations,Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi OF THE NEW TESTAMENT: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, The Acts of the Apostles, Paul's Epistle to the Romans, I Corinthians, II Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians, I Timothy, II Timothy, To Titus, To Philemon, The Epistle to the Hebrews, Epistle of James, The first and second Epistles of Peter, The first, second, and third Epistles of John, The Epistle of Jude, The Revelation All of which are given by the inspiration of God, to be the rule of faith and life. ( 2 Timothy 3:16)
3._____ The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the canon or rule of the Scripture, and, therefore, are of no authority to the church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved or made use of than other human writings. ( Luke 24:27, 44; Romans 3:2 )
4._____ The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself), the author thereof; therefore it is to be received because it is the Word of God. ( 2 Peter 1:19-21; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 John 5:9 )
5._____We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church of God to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scriptures; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, and the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, and many other incomparable excellencies, and entire perfections thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth, and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts. ( John 16:13,14; 1 Corinthians 2:10-12; 1 John 2:20, 27)
6._____The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word, and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed. ( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Galatians 1:8,9; John 6:45; 1 Corinthians 2:9-12; 1 Corinthians 11:13, 14; 1 Corinthians 14:26,40)
7._____All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of ordinary means, may attain to a sufficient understanding of them. ( 2 Peter 3:16; Psalms 19:7; Psalms 119:130)
8._____The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them. But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have a right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded in the fear of God to read and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come, that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship him in an acceptable manner, and through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may have hope. ( Romans 3:2; Isaiah 8:20; Acts 15:15; John 5:39; 1 Corinthians 14:6, 9, 11, 12, 24, 28; Colossians 3:16 )
9._____The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself; and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched by other places that speak more clearly. ( 2 Peter 1:20, 21; Acts 15:15, 16)
10.____The supreme judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit, into which Scripture so delivered, our faith is finally resolved. ( Matthew 22:29, 31, 32; Ephesians 2:20; Acts 28:23)
Which thing did they get wrong SH? What would you say differently?
If The Gospel was rational and intellectual, it not require faith and would not be "foolish" to the wise.
SH,
God tells us what he has done.
But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired.
~ Romans 1:18-24
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You sound very much like some JW's and Mormons I have dealt with and also many from Christian Churches. They will pick out snippets of text and say, see this proves what I have said. You do the same thing. When you do that you can make the bible say just about anything that you want it to say. It is sad that you have to do that to support your view, but that is on you.
I claimed to have been a Calvinist. That is true (and you have no grounds to say otherwise). But I have grown spiritually since that time. It is not a past that brings me pride (nobody likes to say they once believed in such nonsense) but it is a fact.
I do offer my belief, what you see as error and philosophical novelty. And I will continue to do so for the benefit of those why may visit with a heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
It is foolishness to you...a philosophical novel...and you mock. It does not meet your standard of intellectualism and is far to simple for you to believe. I understand that. But to many of us it is the gospel -
God loved the world by sending His Son that whoever believes in Him will have everlasting life. Jesus committed no sin. But men esteemed Him as afflicted by God. He was abused. He did not return the abuse but put His trust in God and God's righteousness. Jesus bore our sins in His body on the Cross, He became a curse for us. The reason was so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. The cross was God reconciling man to Himself. Man is reconciled to God through Christ's death and men are saved through His life. Our salvation is God's righteousness manifested apart from the law. Men must be born again, made new creations, dead to the flesh and born of the Spirit. God is just and the justifier of sinners.
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