The Ministries of Holy Spirit: Old and New

Hi guys, due to a thread closure I was not able to respond to a post that, while related to the discussion of the OP, also stepped into another area of discussion (and you usually have to include many topics to get to a sound understanding of the primary issue).

So wanted to start a thread looking at the Ministries of the Holy Spirit in the Old and New Testament Eras (and whether there were differing Eras is not up for debate, it is pretty clear in Scripture there are several, i.e. a time when man had not sinned, and a time when he did; a time when he was not under Law, then under Law, then not under Law again).

I will begin the discussion with my own view: the Holy Spirit has always ministered in the lives of the faithful, even from the Garden. In the Old Testament Eras this ministry is known as "the filling" of the Spirit, which is an empowering by the Spirit for men (and women) to fulfill ministries such as Prophet, Priest, King, and Warrior. I distinguish between this and the Eternal Indwelling of God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in the lives of born-again believers. Christ makes it clear the Holy Spirit, ministering in the capacity of Comorter—had not yet come, and could not come until He returned to Heaven.

Part of my Scriptural Basis for this view would be:


John 14:15-23 King James Version

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


This indwelling is eternal (v.16), and involves the indwelling of the Father (v.23), the Son (v.18, 20, and 23), and the Holy Ghost (v.17).

In v. 17 Christ makes the distinction that the Spirit, the Comforter to come, is with them, but shall be in them.


John 16:7-9 King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Again, the Comforter cannot come until the Lord returns to Heaven. Then, says the Lord, "I will send Him unto you."

Secondly, I would point out that a primary ministry of the Comforter will be to bring conviction upon unbelievers, specifically that they might believe on Jesus Christ (vv.8-10).


Lastly, for now, consider:


Acts 1:4-5 King James Version

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


The Lord makes it clear these disciples were not Baptized with the Holy Ghost yet, that would happen "not many days hence." As John prophesied, "I baptize you with water unto repentance, but He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost (salvation) and with fire (eternal judgment (Matthew 3:11-12))," we see the fulfillment of this prophecy—which is a promise of God (v.5)—will take place soon.

It hasn't happened yet. So the question to ask here is, "If it hasn't happened, yet the Holy Spirit had been with them—isn't this a new ministry of the Holy Spirit?"

My view says, yes, this is a new ministry of the Holy Ghost, it wasn't happening in the Old Testament. The Holy Ghost was with them, but not in them in Eternal Union as we are when we are baptized into Christ in this present Era.

The disciples get their promises confused, and ask ...


6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


This too is God's promise to Israel (and His ministry was specific to Israel: Matthew 10:4-6; Matthew 15:24), but the Lord had just told them what promise was to be fulfilled not many days hence, that they would receive the Promised Spirit (Ezekiel 36:27).



8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Many view this as the empowering ministry of the Holy Ghost, the filling. To a certain extent that is true, but that does not change the distinctive nature of the Ministry of the Comforter, the Eternal Indwelling that would soon take place and the difference between the Baptism with the Holy Ghost (which will be their source for the empowerment) and the filling of the Holy Ghost.

Remember, He (the Comforter) could not come until Christ left:


9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.


And now we are at the point when the Comforter, the Promised Spirit of the Father—could be sent.

When He is, He is now in us, rather than with us. That indwelling is eternal, unlike the the filling of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit came upon people in the Old Testament to empower them and would leave. It was an internal indwelling, but not an eternal indwelling.

I will provide one proof text that might be thought to negate the above passages' teachings:


1 Samuel 16:13-14 King James Version

13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.

In v. 13, we see the Spirit of God come upon David from that day forward. THat does not negate the Lord's teaching concerning the Spirit being with men, and being in men forever.

In v.14 we see the Spirit depart from Saul. This departing is not something that happens to born-again believers who have been brought into eternal union with God.

David cried, "Take not thy Spirit from me!"

Can you? Would you? Not likely, if you know His promise, "I will never leave, nor forsake you."


Okay, there it is, have fun.


God bless.

 

The following is the reason for beginning this thread, it is a post I didn't get a chance to address due to thread closure. It does have some relevant statements to the issue of the OP, though. I won't post the poster's name, he can make that clear should he choose to respond to it.

Thanks, as well for the response. I have included it here because this issue will have an important part to play in many of the Doctrinal Positions we take. I made it anonymous and will leave it up to you to respond but give you the option to disregard if you would rather, lol.

And notice that this is prophecy, meaning it hasn't taken place yet, meaning it wasn't taking place at the time. It is what would happen when God restores Israel (though we know it is already happening for us in regard to the eternal indwelling).

First, I see Adam's distinction as "the son of God" being distinctive to Adam Himself.

Secondly, being called a "son of God" refers to several different contexts. Angels, the children of Israel (sons and daughters of God), Christ (The Son of God), and believers that have been reconciled to God and have received the adoption of sons (which includes women).

Consider:

Psalm 89:5-7: King James Version

5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.

6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?

7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.


The assembly of the saints in the Old Testament can be called sons of God, but they had not received the adoption of sons, as that was still promised:


Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


Here we see men redeemed from the Law (which they were under in the day of the Psalmist) for the purpose that the promises might be received. Here, the adoption of sons.

We also see that God sending His Spirit (which was also just a promise prior to Christ's Work) is mentioned: by this we call Him Father, not as our Creator, but as our Father.

The children of Israel were considered sons and daughters of God, seen here:

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Continued...

 

First, the filling of the Spirit was sufficient to empower men and women unto faith and following God's will for their lives. But it wasn't the eternal indwelling. It was continuous throughout the Old Testament, but we see that in man there was much lacking. God rebukes Israel because they did not Keep His Covenant, hence the need for the promise of the New Covenant:


Jeremiah 31:31-34 King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Ezekiel 36:27 King James Version

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Clearly prophecy and promise that would not be fulfilled until the New Covenant is established through the Sacrifice of Christ.

On the contrary, we are not sons of Abraham, nor of his household, we are sons of God and of the household of Christ:

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Hebrews 3:5-8
King James Version

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:


We are "sons of Abraham" in the sense that we benefit from the Abrahamic Covenant, which was not disannulled by the Covenant of Law. The New Covenant has its roots in the Abrahamic Covenant, but is not the Abrahamic Covenant, it is—new.

While I agree that the Promised Spirit was given on the Day of Pentecost, and that is the Day when men began to be baptized with the Holy Ghost into Christ, it was a validation of the fulfillment of Promise and in no way validates men being eternally indwelt by God in the Old Testament Eras.

I have presented passages in the OP discussing that, so that might be a good place to start in an approach to invalidating my view, lol.

I thought it would be good to respond to your post, as I hate leaving posts unaddressed. Look forward to your input on this topic.


God bless.

 

As mentioned in the OP, we have to deal with the direct teachings of Christ which deny that the Spirit promised by God in the Old Testament had been sent (and I have posted some of those that they might be addressed if anyone disagrees). We aren't going to be able to deny that Christ is speaking about the Comforter, because He states this plainly in John 14:16 and John 16:7-9. We can further see in Acts 1:4-8 that the "Promised Spirit" has not yet been sent, and cannot be until Christ returns to Heaven.

But for the sake of discussion, I would take a closer look at this:


1 Samuel 16:13-16 King James Version

13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.

15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.


In 1 Kings 22 and 2 Chronicles 18 we see a spirit come forward and offer to be a "lying spirit" in the mouths of the prophets. Here is the question:

Is the "spirit" in view above the Spirit of God Himself, or could we view this more in the light of "a lying spirit," or a "spirit of fear?"

I think it is the Spirit of God, but also that in view is a man being of the Spirit of God in the sense that he has the mind of God (as opposed to a spirit that does contrary to God's will).

Because that is one of the reasons one is filled with the Spirit, to execute God's will, whether that is for the purpose of speaking out the things of God (i.e., Prophet, Priest), or performing them (i.e., Priest, King and Warrior).

I do see this as the filling, not the eternal indwelling promised by the Father and taught of by Christ (Acts 1:4-5).

Lastly, we see "the evil spirit" of v.15-16 remedied (or said to be) by music. Did this drive out a troubling spirit (in the sense of the spirit who would be a lying spirit in the mouths of the Prophets) or did it calm a troubled spirit (Saul's) who had an evil spirit (his disposition)?

That is the position I see Christ's teaching forcing us to conclude.

John 14:15-23 speaks of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost indwelling men in a way that Christ compares by distinguishing between "with" and "in."

It would seem pretty obvious, at least to me, that the disciples are not at this point in Christ.

Christ said He would send another Comforter, and this is contrasted to His Own ministry as the "Consolation of Israel."

These things would take place at some point in the future, which indicates they were not taking place at that time.


God bless.

 

It does, because Moses was related to God. But we see they were not baptized into Christ, but into Moses.

This is a baptism of identification and is very like Christian Baptism, in which we, when we are publicly baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ, and in the Name of God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, are publicly identified with Him. But when we are Baptized with the Holy Ghost it is a spiritual baptism performed by God which is the moment we receive the eternal indwelling of God and are placed in Christ.

Consider:


1 Corinthians 10 King James Version

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;


They were identified with Moses. Moses was the means through which God gave Israel physical redemption. This redemption pictured the Eternal Redemption we would receive in Christ. We are not baptized into Moses, but into Christ.


3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


The "rock" that followed them provided physical life (Exodus 17; Numbers 20). Moses smote the rock in the first passage, and in the second he was told to speak to the rock, yet smote it, and was charged with sin.

The water the Lord would prepare for them, which is why that rock pictured Christ, would give eternal life, and this through His death:


John 7:37-40 King James Version

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.


Note that the Holy Ghost was not given yet: another clear statement of Christ distinguishing the Holy Ghost being with them (Old Testament Era/s), and the Holy Ghost being in them. If we are not baptized into Christ we have not received that eternal life.

The Prophet spoken of is Jesus Christ, so we see another example of the Gospel in the Old Testament. They did not understand it as we do: we understand what "living water" means, and we can contrast that with the physical water that kept them alive in the wilderness. Just as the earthly bread is contrasted with The Living Bread which came down from Heaven. One provides physical life, and the Other provides Eternal Life:


Deuteronomy 18:18
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Acts 3:22
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.


To show another baptism that is a baptism of identification, we go here:


Acts 19 King James Version

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


Those baptized unto/into Moses were identified with Moses. Those Baptized unto/into John were identified with John.

Those baptized into Christ are identified with Christ, and specifically with His death, burial, and Resurrection.

We do not deny that the Holy Ghost has always ministered in and through men, but this is the filling of the Spirit. The source of Eternal Life, as we see the Lord state above in John 7, had not been given men. When the Lord speaks of detail of when He will be given in John 14:15-23 it is easy to understand that it hasn't happened yet.

When it did, the Holy Ghost, performing the Ministry of (another) Comforter, would be in them.


Continued...

 

Yes, constraints can be assigned to Eras.

The first obvious constraint is that Joel 2 is Prophecy, and the events hadn't taken place at that time. So for at least that time and the time prior to it we know what will happen has not yet happened.

Keep in mind that Prophecy can be fulfilled partially. When Christ was prophesied to come it was not known then that He would be coming twice, and that certain prophecy would not be ultimately fulfilled until the final fulfillment takes/took place.

For example:


Luke 4:18-21 King James Version

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.


But not all of the Prophecy was fulfilled that day:


Isaiah 61:1-3 King James Version

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.


The "day of vengeance," or, the Day of the Lord, at which time we will see the restoration of Israel (which is prophesied in many places).

So in regard to Joel 2, we see the Tribulation (A/The Day of the Lord), a call to repentance for the people of Israel, God pouring out His Spirit (which I believe can speak of both the filling and the eternal indwelling, because in that time men and women will be born again), and the restoration of Israel itself.

But what we cannot make it to mean is the eternal indwelling of God that is promised by God in this Era and taught of by Christ in His ministry to Israel, and fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost:


Acts 1:4-8 King James Version

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


A few things to note would be:

1. the disciples would receive the Promise of the Father (i.e., Ezekiel 36:27), which means they had not yet received it;

2. Christ contrasts the baptism of John with the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, just as Peter does in Acts 11:13-18, and Paul does in Acts 19, which shows being identified with John was not salvific;

3. the disciples are looking for the restoration of Israel, which they knew God had promised them, but did not understand partial and multiple fulfillment of Prophecy. They, like many today who try to understand Prophecy, can only imagine that the prophecy will be fulfilled all at one time;

4. the disciples would be filled with the Holy Ghost when the Holy Ghost came upon them, which is thought to simply refer to the filling and empowering by many. But when we look at Acts 11:13-18 we see the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is the moment of salvation, the granting of repentance unto (eternal) life. The disciples would then begin to be witnesses of Christ because the receiving of the Promised Spirit would allow them to understand the Gospel, which was Mystery, but revealed to them by the Comforter (John 16:7-9; John 16:13).

We know the Holy Ghost has always ministered in and through men, and filled them to empower Prophets, Priests, Kings, and Warriors. But we distinguish between the filling (which is still something God does among the members of the Body (Ephesians 5:18)) with the Eternal Indwelling of God:


John 14:15-17 King James Version

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


As mentioned in the OP, the Spirit of God came upon people, but would also leave. That the Spirit of God came upon David "from that day forward" indicates that He did not leave David as He did Saul, but it is still the filling of the Spirit, not the Eternal INdwelling of GOd which Christ taught was not happening during His Ministry. He taught it was coming in a future day, and that it could not happen until He returned to Heaven.

That places the moment men began to be baptized into Christ and the receiving of the Promised Spirit at the Day of Pentecost.


Continued...

 

"Afterward" is a reference to the fact that what is being said is prophecy, and speaks of a future time. We can see constraints placed on the timing:


Joel 2:28-32 King James Version

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.


The pouring out of the Spirit at this time coincides with the Tribulation and comes before (v.31) the great and terrible Day of the Lord.

What follows is the Restoration of Israel.

He is God, isn't He?

"Incorruption" primarily speaks of the resurrection body we receive in the Rapture. Our current tabernacle, the earthly body is mortal and corrupt, and when we receive that "heavenly body" made without hands it will be immortal (not subject to death) and incorrupt (not affected by the Fall). We see Paul desiring to be raptured in his lifetime in 2 Corinthians 5:1-8.

Correct: the eternal indwelling of God is the "downpayment, the guarantee that God will raise us in incorruptible bodies:


2 Corinthians 5 King James Version

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.


Paul doesn't want to die (be unclothed, his spirit departing from his earthly body), but does want to receive the incorruptible body.

That he believes this can happen without death shows his faith in the Rapture, and the intensity of his desire for it (we groan). This isn't the only place he mentions this:


Romans 8:18-23 King James Version

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


Paul contrasts the redemption of our bodies (which will take place at the Rapture) with the tribulation Christ said we would have while we are in this world.

Not The Tribulation, but tribulation in our daily conversation.


God bless.

 

No, they were not justified in the same sense, because they were not freely justified in the Name of Jesus Christ, nor were their sins forgiven through Christ yet:


Romans 3:20-26 King James Version

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


In view is the statement that "...no flesh shall be justified in an eternal context (meaning a result that does not have an end, everlasting). We know men were justified, so how is it no man can be justified yet Abraham and David were?

Because we have to distinguish Temporal Justification (Romans 4; James 2) from Eternal Justification as seen here. This is what Paul is doing.

Note the words "but now" in v.21, and "at this time" in v.26. "This is happening now," and it wasn't before.

It is the righteousness of Christ that is "at this time" being declared, and it is His righteousness that is imputed to those who have faith in and believe in Jesus (vv.22 and 26).

Note that v.25 distinguishes "faith in His blood." That is a reference to faith in the death of Christ. What man had faith in Christ's death prior to the Cross?

Not a single man. Not a single woman. That is something we can have faith in only after He has died. And it is impossible for men to have faith in His death (that He died for us) until the Mystery of the Gospel is revealed to them. The Mystery was revealed to men when the Comforter came:


Colossians 1:25-27 King James Version

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


The indwelling of Christ is the "riches of the mystery." Here we see that this was not made known to "ages and generations." "The hope of glory" here is another reference to the glorified body.

So the constraints placed on Prophecy begin when understanding is given unto men concerning the Prophecy. No man knew that Christ would come twice. No man knew that Christ would indwell them eternally. No man knew that Christ's death would be a vicarious death, that He would die in the stead of the sinner, and that His righteousness could be imputed to them.

So go back to Romans 3 and recognize that justification through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus is something that is taking place now.

His righteousness was imputed to David and Abraham after Christ died. They were justified, and this secured their eternal destinies because they had faith in the Messiah according to the revelation provided to them.

Look at how Abraham understood the veiled Gospel:


Galatians 3:6-8 King James Version

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


We can't argue with Scripture: the "Gospel" Abraham heard is given right here, just as it is in Romans 4.

Abraham believed God would give him a son, and that all families of the earth would be blessed through that seed.

But he didn't understand that the seed was singular:


16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Understand that Paul is explaining this to those he writes to: they needed to understand that the Gospel was what Abraham heard, but he understood it as referring to his physical offspring. Abraham believed God, therefore it was counted as righteousness. Hence the distinctions made in Romans 3. Romans 4 is given to illustrate that God has justified before apart from works of the Law, not to equate Eternal Justification in Christ with Abraham's justification. James wasn't trying to say Abraham was eternally justified, he was exhorting the body of Christ to live righteously in this world. His context, like Paul's in Romans 4 is temporal.


13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


How is man redeemed from the Law, and the penalty of Law?

By Christ hanging on a tree (being put to death). That is how New Birth can take place (John 3:9-16)

He had to die that the blessings God promised to Abraham could be bestowed (v.14).

And there is a constraint on Eras given:


Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


Christ did not come until "the fullness of time was come."

Then He was sent. Then He redeemed.

Then we received the adoption of sons (John 1:11-13).

It was, after Christ died for them:


Hebrews 9:12-18 King James Version

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.


If we simply keep the sequence Scripture gives us, it is easily undertood.


God bless.

 

In Galatians, Paul is using the word "faith" to refer to a specific faith, which is specific faith in Christ as the Resurrected Savior.

He isn't trying to say that faith didn't exist before.


Galatians 3:22-28 King James Version

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.


So Paul again concludes all to be under the penalty of sin. He doesn't declare this, Scripture does.

All men are declared by Scripture to be under sin (and the penalty that arises from that condition) for the express purpose of declaring the means of salvation from sin.

When he states we were kept under Law before the faith came, this goes back to the "promise of faith in Christ, and believing in Christ" would be given. When? After some point in time. Does he tell us? Yes, several times. Here it is after being kept under the Law ends. We were kept under Law before the faith came, so when the faith came we were no longer under Law. This is what he means in Galatians 3:4-6: Christ was sent at a specific time to redeem those who were under Law.

The faith (in Christ) would be revealed afterward.

The "faith that should be revealed afterward." What is that faith? Specific faith in Christ. That is his point in the next verse:


24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


The Law was our "schoolteacher" in the sense that it showed we were sinners in need of salvation. The Old Testament promised salvation through the Messiah. The knowledge of Christ was progressive, going from "the seed of the woman" to the seed of Abraham to the Messiah suffering and dying (Isaiah 53), so each generation was given more information about Christ progressively. Isaiah had more knowledge than Abraham. Abraham had more knowledge than Adam and Eve, and so forth.

Now, note that the Law being our schoolteacher was for the purpose that we might be justified by faith.

What faith?

The faith of Christ.

Again, faith was in the world prior to "the faith" Paul is speaking about, so this faith refers to being justified in a means not already being accomplished. We see that division of Eras, and the constraint placed on the Era before, when faith had not come.


25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Note there is an "after" in regards to faith. The faith is Faith in Christ. Being justified through faith in Christ, because we believe on Him is different than general faith. This is why the writer of Hebrews speaks of the first principles of the Doctrine of Christ and states we are not to lay again the first principle of "faith in God," but we are to go on to perfection/completion, which is specific faith in Christ rather than general faith in God. Many people today have general faith in God or a god, but that will avail nothing.

So we see a time when faith had not come and men were under Law. Then we see a time where faith has come and we are no longer under Law. What Paul is teaching is that what divides those two Eras is Faith in Christ. Believing in Christ. We are now justified on an eternal basis by specific faith in Christ (Romans 3:20-26).

We are sons of God because we now believe specifically in Christ:


26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Not sons of Abraham, but sons of God. When did becoming sons of God become possible? When God manifested in the flesh (John 1:11-13). We see these same teachings throughout Scripture so it boggles the mind that they are not understood.

We are sons of God because...


27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


...we are now being baptized into Christ. Not baptized into Moses, not baptized by John for repentance. Baptized into Christ because now The Faith (in Christ) has come. It wasn't available under the law. It wasn't available before the Law (being baptized into Moses precedes the establishment of the Law).

Now, let's see another indication of change:


28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Was their Jew and Gentile prior to The Faith coming?

Yes.

That is because before The Faith came no man was baptized into Christ. We (Jew and Gentile alike) are made one (the Church) because we are one in Christ. Because we are in Christ, and they were not before the faith came.


Continued...

 

"Before the world began" is a reference, not to completion of something, but that it was God's will to occur since and before that time.

The "lamb slain from the foundation of the world" was not slain from the foundation of the world, He died roughly 2,000 years ago on the Cross. But it was known to God that He would die from and before the foundation of the world. You rightly specify that time in regard to Christ being born of a woman. That had to precede His death.

And it was only through Him that the Promise of the Father (Acts 1:4-5) could be bestowed. All promises of God in the Old Testament, beginning with the first occurrence of the Gospel (Genesis 3:15) had as a basis Jesus Christ dying in our stead. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. It is that which gives life to prophecy. Any prophecy that does not center on Jesus Christ is dead.

Yes, out of the dead. His Resurrection is in view. He was not left in Hades as David was. Meaning, "Brethren, you know David's prophecy? Well, it wasn't talking about him, because David did not rise from the dead (yet, lol)."

The promise is best taken to refer to the prophecy in view, that Christ would rise from the dead. Peter is preaching the resurrection of Christ. He is preaching the Gospel. Mid-Acts Dispensationalists crack me up when they deny Peter is preaching the Gospel here.

Yes, specific faith in Christ, that He died, arose, and returned to Heaven.

We receive the Spirit of God through believing in Christ and having The Faith of Christ, specific faith in the Person of Christ.

This could be viewed as "hearing about faith in Christ," and could also be viewed as a direct reference to their personal hearing about Christ and the subsequent faith in Christ. Both would be accurate in my view.

Contrasted is one bringing about the receiving of the Holy Ghost through their own efforts, or simply receiving the Spirit through faith. Paul will go on to make it clear that "The Faith" wasn't available under the Law, so to ascribe one's salvation to performing the works of the Law makes absolutely no sense.

It is relevant to the overall Doctrine.

Our salvation is not by works which we have done or will do, it is by divine intervention (the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost). I tend to look at the renewing of the Holy Ghost as not just a reference to the new creature, but also a renewal of relationship with God. Adam was in direct physical relationship with GOd and that ceased when he was thrust from the Garden.

Not sure what point you are referring to, but I would guess it would center on Election. I'm okay with that as long as it doesn't suggest that the constraints Scripture places on Eternal Redemption, Reconciliation, and Atonement aren't ascribed from the "beginning," from or before the foundation of the world.

Paul absolutely denies that in all of his writings. In Galatians 3 we see him teaching the time before faith came (and men were under Law, the schoolteacher), and the time when faith had come, when we were no longer under the Law.

He reiterates that in saying God sent His Son when the fullness of times arrived, and that He was born of a woman (not an ongoing eternal event), made under the Law (which itself has a beginning in time), that He might redeem those who were under Law (Galatians 4:4-6).

Yes, God knew who would be saved, but Eternal Redemption, REconciliation, and Atonement have a beginning in time. We see that here:


John 3:16 King James Version

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


The Son had to be sent that men might not perish and have everlasting life.

That is the point Paul makes in Galatians 3.


God bless.

 

The first Passover was a sacrifice of an animal in the place of a sinner, that they not die physically. It pictured Christ's death as the Lamb of God.

The Passover as a memorial also pictured His death. It is similar to Communion for us: it memorializes what God has done for us, in that what is memorialized was a sacrifice that took away the penalty for our sin, death.

And it took death away in the here and now, because we have received eternal life through The Faith. Through being sons of God because we have been identified with and baptized into Christ Jesus.

Because of constraint (and I am glad you brought this word into the discussion, lol, it is a great word to use in the context of the discussion (I think it was you, it might have been Yeshua1)).

The Gospel was not broadcast in an unveiled manner during Christ's ministry. His disciples preached the gospel (good news) of the Kingdom (the promise of GOd to Israel), not the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Note how late it is in His Ministry when He began to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with His disciples:


Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


"From that time forth" is noteworthy. From that time forth He began to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ (v.21).

And Peter rejects the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He had no problem preaching the gospel of the Kingdom, but that the King they had been awaiting would die?

"Be it far from thee, Lord!"

But wait, Peter, don't you understand that His death is the only thing that can keep you from eternal separation, eternal judgment, and eternal damnation?

No, he didn't understand that. So with a sword, he tried with murderous violence to keep the king they wanted from dying. One fellow lost his ear to Peter's Law-breaking efforts.

Then, when his own physical life was in danger, he denied he even knew Jesus Christ.

A moment of weakness? Yes, but that weakness was based on his ignorance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which would remain a Mystery until Pentecost.

After he is baptized into Christ and is eternally indwelt he immediately begins to preach the Gospel.


God bless.