Featured The Marriage Supper of the Lamb

Hi Everyone,

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Apoc 19:7-9)

This really is a continuation of the thread titled the “Rapture Question”. I want to focus on the meaning of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. In the thread “Rapture Question”, I spoke a lot about two doctrines: The Communion of Saints and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb both as being on earth and in heaven at the same time. The Catholic Church believes the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I thought showing the Mass as the Marriage Supper would be a different way of showing the Mass and it would be building upon the understanding you already have in the Marriage Supper. Instead of using all the usual verses to show the biblical basis for The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (Eucharist), which I partially showed in the thread titled “Rapture Question”, I will use mostly different ones. It’s a different approach. I think that when you see this you will, hopefully, be able to see the End Times in a different way.

Here’s The Big Picture:

Types of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass

The Passover and Mount Zion are “Types” of the The Marriage Supper of the Lamb = The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass

Signs of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass

The Wedding Feast of Cana and The Marriage Feast (Matt 22) are “Signs” of both the combination of The Last Supper and the Crucifixion = The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass

I suppose you could show it in a lot of different ways but I am going to start with The Marriage of the Lamb and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Then I will talk about Mount Zion and The Wedding Feast of Cana. The Marriage Feast in Matt 22 I may do later.


Marriage of the Lamb and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb

Apoc 19:7-9 Let us be glad and rejoice and give glory to him. For the marriage of the Lamb is come: and his wife hath prepared herself. 8 And it is granted to her that she should clothe herself with fine linen, glittering and white. For the fine linen are the justifications of saints. 9 And he said to me: Write: Blessed are they that are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith to me: These words of God are true.

In these verses you see both the Marriage of the Lamb and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. They are distinct yet they go together. You cannot have one without the other. One thing to keep in mind is that they both are not just in the future. Just because these verses are in Apoc 19 (which is right before ch 20 which speaks of the millennial reign) doesn’t mean this marriage doesn’t already exist. It doesn’t have to wait until after the Rapture. There are some things that are only in the future, in the Apocalypse, but there are also things in the past and in the present. You can’t get to the future except through the present. So, In Catholic Eschatology, we believe the Apocalypse is Preterist, Historicist, Idealist and Futurist. There are multiple fulfillments so it’s not just one view that is correct but they are all correct.

Here’s my interpretation of how we would view Apoc 19:7-9:

Apoc 19:7 - Marriage of the Lamb - Conversion - person coming into the church (Baptism)
Apoc 19:8 - Fine linen - Sanctifying grace [the Elect - the Elect can change (Apoc 3:5)]
Apoc 19:9 - Marriage Supper of the Lamb - receiving the Eucharist or The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (this is the consummation of the marriage)

You have the Marriage of the Bride (Apoc 19:7, Eph 5:23-32), the Unveiling of the Bride (the whole Book of the Apocalypse) and the Consummation of the Bride (reason for the Unveiling - Apoc 19:9) (The Lamb’s Supper, Dr. Scott Hahn, p125)

Looking at it this way would show that all Christians in God’s Grace would be at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Holy Sacrifice of the Mass), those in the past, present and future. As we like to say about the Mass: “It’s the same sacrifice, made present”, that is, it’s the same sacrifice on the cross 2,000 years ago made present on the altars, in an unbloody manner, at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. This Marriage Supper does continue in heaven until Christ’s intercession for those on earth (and Purgatory) are completed at the Final Judgement (the Great White Throne Judgement) (Fr Pohle’s Systematic Theology, Soteriology, p138), however, the effects last forever ([John 6:59 (58)]. (also see CCC 1370-71). The Marriage is between the persons in the church (Bride - Apoc 21:9-16) and Christ (Bridegroom - Lamb Apoc 19:7,9). At the Catholic Mass, just before the distribution of Communion (the Eucharist), the priest raises the Host and says, “Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who takes away the sins of the world. Blessed are those called to the supper of the Lamb.”

Marriage of the Lamb - OT prefigurements

Just to mention a couple of them:
Ps 23 The Lord is our Shepherd (bridegroom) and we are His sheep (bride). Ps 23:5 speaks of a “Table” which sounds like a “Supper” and, in context, is joined to the cross (Ps 22:2). So you have a “Supper” joined to a “Cross”.
2 Sam 5:1,7 This describes a marriage between David and his people when the people say “Behold we are thy bone and thy flesh.” This sounds like Adam when he describes Eve when he says “This now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh…” (Gen 2:23) This marriage of David and his people then go to Mount Zion (1 Sam 5:7).
Gen 22:2,9-10 Abraham, on Mount Moriah, was to offer his son Isaac on an altar (v9) and it was a sacrifice (v10). Abraham had a covenant (marriage) with God (Gen 17:9).

 

Mount Zion

Mount Zion is in Jerusalem and is the place where the Last Supper (Upper Room) and Pentecost (Upper Room) took place. Jewish tradition says that this is the exact spot where Melchisedech offered bread and wine (Gen 14:18)(How Christ said the First Mass, Fr. James Meagher, 1906, p223). Another interesting thing is that, during the seige of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple in 70ad, when all of Jerusalem was destroyed, the Upper Room survived. In 130ad, when Hadrian came to put down the second Jewish revolt, Jerusalem was still in ruins. St. Epiphanius reported that Jerusalem was still in ruins “except for a few houses and the little church of God on the spot where the disciples went to the upper room.” It was as if, by divine Providence, the Temple was replaced by the Upper Room as the place for sacrifice. Dr. Scott Hahn thinks that the Book of the Apocalypse was mainly about the Fall of Jerusalem (The Lamb’s Supper, pp 92-93). He says the Apocalypse had an imminent tone (Apoc 1:1) and was the End of “A” World but not the End of “The” World. It was the end of the Temple and the end of the Old Testament. The Temple was for sacrifice and it was replaced with the Upper Room which was for the “Eucharistic Sacrifice” on Mount Zion (John 2:19). The Eucharistic Sacrifice is the “Parousia”. Parousia means “Presence” (Strong’s #3952) so “Parousia” doesn’t always have to mean a future “Second Coming”. Christ promised to be with His disciples always: “ And behold, I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world” (Matt 28:20).

Mount Zion was where heaven and earth meet

Heb 12:22-24 says:

“But you are come to mount Sion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of angels, 23 And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the sprinkling of blood which speaketh better than that of Abel.”

In addition:

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, (RSV, ESV)

These verses refer to Mount Zion as the “heavenly Jerusalem”. This is the “city of the living God” which is the Communion of Saints, the Church (Apoc 21:1-2). It is the “Church of the Firstborn” (Church on earth and in heaven) which are the Apostles and first Christians and all those in the church now in sanctifying grace (the Elect). The “Church of the firstborn” had to ALL eat the Lamb (Ex 12:4,8,11). The “Spirits of the just made perfect” [should say “Spirit of the just made perfect”, (Aquinas, Commentary on Hebrews, #710) meaning the Holy Spirit makes all the saints perfect in Justice (Righteousness)]. There are also a “Company of many thousands of angels” ascending and descending from heaven to earth. This brings to mind a prefigurement, the Vision of Jacob’s Ladder, which occurred on Mount Zion (Gen 28:11-21, Obad 17,21, Joel 3:17), where angels were ascending and descending (Gen 28:12). You can also see this leading up to the Wedding Feast of Cana (John 1:51). This shows that there is a real connection between those in heaven and on earth and a connection between what goes on in the Upper Room and in heaven. On Mount Zion was the Last Supper (Matt 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20) and at this “Supper” you have the “sprinkling of blood”, which is the “Blood of Christ”(the Crucifixion - the Consummation of the marriage John 19:30, 1 Cor 5:7-8). Notice in John 19:30 the DRV uses “Consummation” instead of “Finished” which the KJV uses. If you look at James 1:15 you can see how Finished = Consummated (see Strong’s #658). James 1:15 talks about how sin is conceived and is born (consummation). 1 Cor 5:8 speaks of a “Feast” which is the Catholic Mass or the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (1 Cor 10:14-16). Heb 12:23 speaks of “God the Judge” in connection with the Upper Room (Eucharistic Sacrifice) at Mount Zion. Judgement comes from the “wrath of the lamb” (Apoc 6:15-16). The Lord’s goal is to bring all men to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Apoc 19:7-9) but He does this through the sufferings and prayers of the saints (Communion of Saints - those on earth and in heaven), especially though the power of the Marriage Supper which is the offering of His body and blood. Christ, in turn, punishes those who do not come (Matt 22:3) or do not come prepared to the Marriage Supper (Matt 8:12, Matt 22:11-13) (this is apostasy according to Fr Kramer, Book of Destiny, p167). Everything, then, hinges on coming to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb now.

Another verse that shows that Mount Zion is where the Supper takes place in the Upper Room and where heaven and earth meet is:

Apoc 14:1 AND I beheld: and lo a Lamb stood upon mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousand, having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.

Mount Zion is where Jesus instituted the Last Supper (also called the Eucharist or the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass - Matt 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20). This is what it means when it says “a Lamb stood upon mount Sion”. Another thought that comes to mind is that as the priest, in the Mass, is offering the sacrifice on earth, Christ, as the High Priest, is standing (Heb 10:11-14) in the sanctuary offering Himself to His Father in heaven! (Apoc 5:6). This is also where Pentecost took place (Acts 2:2). In the Catholic Mass, just before the Consecration (where transubstantiation takes place), the priest calls down the Holy Ghost (epiclesis). The Holy Ghost (the Fire) isn’t the Sacrifice but “Prepares” the Sacrifice. A “type” of this is when Elijah calls down Fire from heaven on the Sacrifice (1 Kings 18:22-38). The priest, during Mass, says, “Make holy, therefore, these gifts, we pray by sending down your Spirit upon them like the dewfall, so that they “may become” (future - in a minute) for us the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Apoc 14:1 says 144,000 were on Mount Zion yet Apoc 7:11,14 says they were in heaven! These verses show that the 144,000 actually signify both those on earth and in heaven which further shows the church in heaven and on earth are united (Communion of Saints). In the preterist view, these 144,000 were a remnant saved during the Jewish war that ended with the destruction of the Temple in 70ad (Ezek 9:2-4 - they were marked on their foreheads). “Written on their foreheads” probably refers to those Baptized or Confirmed. These 144,000 Jewish Christians had fled to the mountains across the Jordan to a place called Pella.

In conclusion, in these verses, you have the Marriage Supper, Pentecost, the saints in heaven and on earth and the Blood of Christ all in ONE place, in ONE prayer (the Last Supper), in the Upper Room where the Last Supper took place. This is the Catholic Mass. Miraculously, the Upper Room and the Jewish Christians were preserved.

(Some of this is from Dr. Scott Hahn’s book titled “The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth”. I recommend this book and it is an easy read. It sounds a little like a conversion story because it is. Scott said he was converted by seeing the Catholic Mass in the Apocalypse.)

 

Wedding Feast of Cana

The Wedding Feast of Cana as a prefigurement of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass

The Big Picture

John 2:1

The first thing to notice is that the Wedding Feast of Cana is in the Gospel of John (John 2:1-11) and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is in the Book of the Apocalypse (Apoc 19:7,9). Since both books of the Bible were written by John, the two go together. John 1:1 says, “In the beginning was the Word…” The Gospel of John starts out like Genesis. In John 1 there are “4 Days” mentioned then in John 2:1 it skips to “Day 7”:

Day 1 begins - John 1:1
Day 2 begins - John 1:29
Day 3 begins - John 1:35
Day 4 begins - John 1:43
Day 7 begins - John 2:1

The “Days” correspond to the 7 days of creation so the Wedding Feast of Cana starts on the 7th day, the day of rest or the day of perfection (Gen 2:2). The 6th Day in Genesis refers back to the first marriage when Eve was made from the side of Adam (Gen 2:21-24). This signifies the Marriage of the Lamb (Apoc 19:7). The Marriage takes place before the Marriage Supper. The “seven days” in John 1-2 show us that Mary is instrumental in giving birth to Christ’s ministry (John 2) and, through this ministry, Christ will make “all things new” (Apoc 21:5). Through this marriage, all those in Christ, will become a “new creation”(2 Cor 5:17),

The Wedding Feast of Cana verse by verse

John 2:1-2

If you look at the story of the Wedding Feast of Cana, the ONLY people named in the story are Jesus and Mary. Mary is mentioned first (John 2:1). Jesus and His disciples are mentioned next (John 2:2). Notice that Jesus brings His disciples, whom He gathered in John 1 and who are going to be celibate, to a wedding! These celibate men, who are at the Wedding, are going to be priests at a Wedding, that is, the Holy Sacrifice of the the Mass. Mary “intercedes” for those at the wedding, goes to Jesus and points out that the wine ran out (John 2:3). Mary “intercedes” for all the people at the Wedding Feast which signifies all who are called to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Apoc 19:7,9). Notice, Mary had Faith in Jesus before the miracle. Jesus’ disciples had Faith only after the miracle (John 2:11). This means that it was through the intercession of Mary that the disciples received Faith. In Genesis, the Fall came through a woman and so, in the Redemption, it begins with a woman. In creation it started with a man but, in the New Creation, it starts with a woman.

Jesus is the New Adam and Mary is the New Eve

John 2:3

Jesus says to her, “Woman, what is that to me and to thee? My hour is not yet come.”(John 2:3) Two things: Jesus calls her “Woman” and He says His “Hour” has not yet come. “Hour” refers to His Crucifixion which ties the Wedding Feast to the Crucifixion. Also, in context, after the Wedding, Jesus goes to the Temple (John 2:13-21), which ties the Wedding Feast to the Sacrifice. The sacrifice prefigures the crucifixion. Jesus, the Passover Lamb (John 1:29), went to the temple during the Passover (John 2:13). Jesus said His body was the temple and, if you destroy this temple in Jerusalem, He would raise the Temple (His Body) in three days. Jesus was saying that the temple was His body (John 2:21), the Eucharist, and that He was God because God’s presence was in this Temple. Jesus calls His mother “Woman” which changes her role. Mary “starts” Jesus’ public ministry (John 2:3) and she is there when it is “Finished” at the cross (John 19:30). In context, since John 1-2 is the “New Genesis”, then Mary is the “New Eve”. Mary as the New Eve, in the New Genesis (John 2:3), is going to “reverse” what the old Eve did in the Book of Genesis (Gen 3:6). The “Old Eve” brought sin into the world and Mary, the “New Eve”, will bring redemption into the world through her son, Jesus Christ. If you look at Gen 3, Eve is referred to as the “Woman” 7 times up to the point where the Lord gave the prophecy that the “Woman” would crush the head of the serpent (8 times all together). This is the same “Woman” (Gen 3:15) that Christ is referring to when He refers to His mother as “Woman” (John 2:3). Gen 3:15 says “I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: ‘she’ shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel” (DRV). “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; ‘it’ shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel” (KJV). The difference between these two translations is who will crush the head of the serpent. The DRV says “She” which refers to the “Woman” and the KJV says “It” which refers to Jesus (the KJV translators think it’s Jesus according to the quotes attached). You could interpret this verse either way and get the same result. The most obvious is that it refers to the “Woman” because the Lord is blaming Eve (the Woman) for the original sin, if you read chapter 3 in context. Since this verse is a prophecy, it refers to a new “Woman” and not the old “Woman”, which is Eve. You could interpret it as Jesus since He is born of Mary and He is where the source of power comes from to crush the head of the serpent. Actually it’s both because Mary is the “Woman” who is going to crush the head of the serpent through “her seed”, Jesus Christ (Gen 3:15). To follow this thinking all the way through, look at Apoc 12. Apoc 12 refers to the “Woman” 8 times just as Gen 3 refers to the “Woman” 8 times. Also in Apoc 12 you will see that it is the “Woman” with “Child” who flees into the desert (Apoc 12:6). Clearly this “Woman” is Mary and the “Child” is Jesus. Of course, in Apoc 12, the “Woman” also signifies the “Church” and this is because Mary is the mother of the church. What does all this mean? It means that, mystically, Mary is the “New Eve” and Christ is the “New Adam” (1 Cor 15:22, 1 Cor 15:45).

The Wedding ends with Calvary - The Bride and Bridegroom are present at both
(The Wedding and the Crucifixion combined is
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass)

John 2:4

This brings us back to the Wedding Feast of Cana. When Jesus says to His Mother “My hour is not yet come”(John 2:4), this ties the Wedding to the Crucifixion. If you look at John 19:26-27, Jesus says from the cross, “Woman, behold thy son.” Then Jesus says to John, “Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.” When Jesus says this to Mary from the cross, this signifies that there is a marriage. This is the Mystical Marriage of Jesus and His Mother, the “New Adam” and the “New Eve”, the Bride and the Bridegroom. This is also where the Sacrament of Marriage was instituted and where it’s power (Sanctifying Grace) comes from: it comes from the Cross. From the side of the “New Adam” asleep on the cross, came the new creation and marriage of the “New Eve”, Mary (just like Eve in Gen 2:21), and their first offspring, John (St. Augustine, Exposition on Ps 127,4). The Sacrament of Marriage also can be seen in Eph 5:32 when it says it’s a “Great Mystery” (“Great Sacrament” DRV). In Latin, it is translated “Sacramentum” (Clementine Latin Vulgate). The institution of the Sacrament of Matrimony by God can also be seen in Gen 2:18-24 (especially v24) and Matt 19:1-12 where Christ reaffirms the institution of the Sacrament of Matrimony and declares its indissolubility. In marriage, the word “Consummated” (John 19:30 DRV) refers to “Offspring” and the first “Offspring” is the apostle John (John 19:26-27) and this is the beginning of the church. You can also see Mary as Mother of the Church in Apoc 12:17. She is our mother in the order of grace (Lumen Gentium, 61). Also, when Jesus says “it is Consummated” (John 19:30), it refers to the Fourth Cup, the cup of vinegar or sour wine. Christ “Consumed” the Passover Cup (John 19:29) which ties the Last Supper to the Crucifixion. Therefore, “Consummation” means both to “Consume” (receive into the body - ex: food like the Eucharist) and to “Consummate” [Redemption for many (Matt 20:28) = conceive and bear offspring like the apostle John (John 19:26-27)].

 

John 2:5-11

At Cana, Mary then says to the waiters, “Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye” (John 2:5). Mary submitted to Christ. She was saying to everyone that we must obey Christ in all things (Aquinas, Commentary on John #354). Jesus then obeys His mother and performs His first public miracle turning the water into wine (John 2:6-10). The 6 waterpots of stone are the Baptismal Waters (John 2:6, John 19:34). Before you came to a Jewish Wedding you had to be washed and cleansed in the waters. This signifies that you have to be Baptized and remain in Sanctifying Grace (Apoc 19:8) to come to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and receive the Eucharist. You also have to be Baptized first before you can receive the Sacrament of Matrimony. Jesus turns this “Water” into wine (John 2:9). Wine signifies both the “Blood of Christ” (John 19:34, Matt 26:27-28, Mark 14:23-25, Luke 22:20, 1 Cor 11:25) and the “Holy Ghost” (Acts 2:13). Water can also signify the Blood (Ex 7:20). Likewise, through the instrumentality of the Catholic Priest at Mass, the wine is substantially changed into Blood of Christ. Another thing to notice is that Jesus says to the waiters (waiters - John 2:5) to take the wine to the chief steward (John 2:8) and then the chief steward takes the wine to the bridegroom (John 2:9). This shows that Jesus is the real Bridegroom. Mary is the real bride because she took the role of what the bride would have done when she said “they have no wine” (John 2:3). Normally a guest wouldn’t do this. In conclusion, there was a real marriage at Cana but there was also the Mystical Marriage, with Mary as the bride and Jesus as the bridegroom.

The Passover is a Type of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass

The Passover in Exodus 12 prefigures the Last Supper and the Crucifixion. The Sacrifice begins in the Upper Room at the Last Supper, when Christ instituted the Eucharist, and ends with the Crucifixion. So Calvary begins with the Eucharist and the Eucharist ends with Calvary. You can see that the Eucharist ends with Calvary when Jesus drinks the Fourth Cup (John 19:29-30)(vinegar = Strong’s 3690. ὄξος ŏxŏs, ox-os; from 3691; vinegar, i.e. sour wine:—vinegar). Hyssop was used to give Jesus wine to drink (John 19:29). At the Passover, the elders used a hyssop branch to sprinkle the doorposts with the blood of the lamb (Ex 12:22). Then Paul says in 1 Cor 5:7-8, “…For Christ our pasch (Passover) is sacrificed. Therefore, let us feast…” What is the “Feast”? This is the Passover Feast. Notice that in these verses (1 Cor 5:7-8), Paul is saying the “Passover Sacrifice” is still going on (1 Cor 10:16). It’s the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass! At the Passover Feast you had to eat the Lamb (Ex 12:4,7,8,11). The Passover is a meal ( you had to eat the flesh) and a sacrifice (Ex12:6). Also, the Passover Lamb was to be taken by every man (“let every man take a lamb” - Ex 12:3) to feed the household which signifies the Catholic Priest who is the head of the household. Also, the Passover points to the cross when it says that when you eat the flesh you are not to break any of the bones (Ex 12:45, John 19:31-33). It also points to the horizontal and vertical beams of the cross when it says to sprinkle the blood on the upper door posts and side posts which describe the horizontal and vertical beams of the door (Ex 12:7, John 10:9).

 

Hi Mathetes66,

My Comment: I just want to ask this question up front: What is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb? In other words, what are you going to be doing at this Supper? Eating real food? What is the Supper itself?

My Comment: I understand what you are saying here but I could just as easily say that you are spiritualizing many verses as well. For example, when you quote Apoc 21 about the New heavens and the New Earth, I’m sure you assume that this is in heaven. It doesn’t have to be just in heaven. Matter of fact it says “New Earth”. Even if it did, that doesn’t mean the Marriage Supper can’t start before that time. I think you need to think about what I said because you are putting everything in the future. When you talk about the wife being betrothed at the wedding feast it looks like you are saying this has to do with a wedding and not the Eucharist. It’s both! We see in these verses Baptism, Eucharist (Marriage Supper) and Matrimony. I think you need to meditate a little more on what I wrote.

My Comment: I said that only the Elect (those written in the Book of Life) can come to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. You see the Lamb’s Book of Life as only after death. Not true. Apoc 21:27 refers to those Written in the Book of Life that are in Glory. This is true but there are two Books of Life. The other Book of Life includes those Elected to Grace (Rom 11:5) and those Elected to Glory. For example: Apoc 3:5, Ex 32:32, Ps 68:29 (Ps 69:29). Election is conditional and includes those in sanctifying grace on earth and not just those in heaven. If you don’t agree with that then why do you have these same people (written in the Book of Life) coming back to earth after the Tribulation? Where is this “New Earth?

My Comment: I answered this. I said the OT saints participate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in heaven. When I talked about Mount Zion, I tried to point out that there is a real connection between those on earth and in heaven. For example, remember me pointing out the angels ascending and descending from heaven? Remember me quoting Heb 12:22 on the “Heavenly Jerusalem”? That this is on earth and in heaven at the same time?

My Comment: Of course, I quoted this verse. I don’t think you really thought about what I said. As I said, the position of this verse being right before ch 20 doesn’t mean it comes later and only after the Rapture. I explained that.

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My Comment: I already quoted this verse. Quoting it doesn’t change anything. The Church is like a marriage.
Just like a marriage is on earth so is the church. The church is not just in heaven. Do you agree with that?

My Comment: Maybe you can explain why you quoted these verses? If it is because you think everything is in the future then why does the man ask Jesus who will be saved? Is salvation only known in the future? Do you believe in once saved always saved?

My Comment: I quoted this verse. Look at what I said about it under Mount Zion. Same as in Matt 22:11-13. Think about this: If you are thrown out wouldn’t that mean you were in? In order to be thrown out of something you had to have been in that something. I’m speaking of the Marriage Supper especially in Matt 22. How could you be thrown out of the Marriage Supper? (Matt 22:4 says there was a dinner)

 

My Comment: OK. This is interesting! If this “Bride” is ONLY married to Christ IN THE FUTURE, then there is no church on earth right now. Is this what you mean? If this is true then how can you be saved? Your quote: “Through the Word of God, the bride is set apart for her future Husband so “that He might sanctify it, having washed it by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:26-27).” You say “Future Husband”. So you are not washed by the water with the word? Are you saved in this world?

 

Hi Mathetes66,

Typeology Is What I Used and Not Symbolism

My Comment: I want to say a little more on this. I’ve read or seen videos that say dispensationalists are very literal in their interpretation of prophecy. I disagree.

Timelines not literal

They may think they are being literal in their timelines but even that is trying to interpret something literal from something that is not always necessarily literal.

Another type you cannot take literal

Another example of another type of something in scripture that cannot be taken literal is this: Apoc 13. Now I know you don’t see a seven-headed beast as a literal seven-headed beast but I think you know what I mean. No one takes everything in the Apocalypse literally.

Typeology

Typeology is what I used in my opening posts. St. Paul used it (1 Cor 10:1-11). We all use Typeology and we are suppose to. It’s just that you don’t like where we use it. Believe me, I KNOW the prejudice against the Blessed Virgin Mary but there are a lot of “Types” of her in the Old Testament. Same with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. So this is not just symbolism but rather Typeology.

 

Hi Mathetes66,

I want to thank you for talking to me. I’m just adding a little more. You reminded me of a couple things I had forgotten and that’s why these talks are important. I can appreciate the logic of the 5 stages of the Marriage of the Lamb and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. I know this is the dispensationalist view and not just yours so this is directed to all dispensationalists. I’m just thinking out loud on this. This is not necessarily Catholic Teaching although I think it is. It’s my interpretation of it. I don’t claim to have all the answers here. I was just meditating on the 5 Stages and this is what I found.

The 5 Stages

I see a mistake in the logic. I admit I may be wrong but this is what I see right now. If you or anyone can answer this, please do.

The mistake I see in the dispensationalist view (5 Stages) is the consummation of the marriage. It comes too late. It’s not even mentioned. Without the consummation of the marriage, there can be no christians. I’ve seen some websites where they say “well, in Jewish customs, it was considered a marriage during the betrothal.” This may be true but there was no consummation of the marriage at the point of the betrothal.

This is the order of things:
The Marriage (Wedding Feast of Cana)
The Marriage Supper (The Last Supper, Mount Zion)
The Consummation of the Marriage (Cross - “It is Finished” or “It is Consummated” DRV)

Hopefully that clears it up. The consummation of the marriage must have already taken place so that all men can be “Born again” (John 3:3) into the Mystical Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:27), the Kingdom of God (Mark 1:15). The kingdom of God, the church, is on earth (Ps 46:8-9 DRV, Ps 47:7-8 KJV, John 18:36 will have to be explained later). The way Fruchtenbaum breaks down the 5 stages, he has you being “certified in the spirit” at the betrothal in stage 2. That can’t be true the way I see it [he’s right in the sense that receiving the Spirit (Baptism) comes before the Supper (Eucharist)]. The Church (Bride) has to be here now and Christ has to already be married to her and already consummated the marriage for their to be christians. Unless there are men “Born again”, there are no children (1 John 5:1, Gal 3:26-27). The children are born into ONE family (Eph 4:5) and the children are united through the marriage and, as one family, partake of The Marriage Supper of the Lamb, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (1 Cor 10:16-17) (CCC #1396). The children are of the same household (Ex 12:3) so they partake of the same sacrifice (Ex 12:6) and Supper (Ex 12:8). The children grow and mature in this marriage (2 Pet 3:18) so that they can inherit the glory of the kingdom in heaven (1 Thess 2:12). This inheritance comes initially through Baptism (Eph 1:13-14). This is why we believe the Marriage and Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Apoc 19:7,9) took place at Cana, the Last Supper and Cross and not in the future after the Rapture.

So what happens to these Christians when the Tribulation comes and they have not been raptured?

Some will die martyrs (Apoc 14:13) and some will survive (protected - Apoc 7:4-14). The martyrs remain in the church and rule and judge (1 Cor 6:2) with Christ from heaven (Apoc 20:4). The martyrs in heaven also “intercede” on behalf of the faithful on earth (Apoc 5:8). The faithful in heaven and on earth are in “One Body”, the Church. The “Wrath of the Lamb” (Apoc 6:16-17) eventually will destroy the unfaithful who persecute the Bride (Apoc 14-18). The destroying of those who persecute the Bride would make the church strong. The great majority of mankind remaining would then be the faithful during the millennial reign when The Eucharistic Lamb reigns supreme in a near unanimous reign. The Eucharistic Lamb reigns now in Catholic Churches but during the millennial reign, it will be more complete with almost all men worshipping the Eucharistic Lamb (Apoc 22:3). He rules in heaven and on earth.

 

Hi 37818,

If The Marriage Supper of the Lamb is not the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, what is it?

 

Hi 37818,

Good point! It’s good to bring up Matt 24:27-28 with Apoc 19:17-21. So what are you saying here? Are you saying that this is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb?

 

Correction: Stage one is the cross so the system does have the consummation but it’s out of order. It has the consummation before the marriage and marriage feast.

 

Hi 37818,

Thanks for talking to me. You usually do. Ha ha That’s a good thing. There’s a lot I could say on this. Your argument seems to be that the words “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” aren’t explicit in scripture. This is true, however, as you know, the word “Trinity” isn’t in scripture either yet we both believe in it. There are other things we believe that aren’t explicit in scripture. As a starting point, maybe it would be good to read a little protestant history, the Colloquy of Marlboro of 1529. This is where Luther, Calvin and Zwingli met to discuss the Eucharist. At least this would show you the importance of the Liturgy of the Last Supper. They all believed in some level of “spiritual presence” in the Eucharist in the Liturgy but they all disagreed with each other. In some denominations, this was abandoned altogether as time went on. As you know, the mainline Protestant denominations such as the Episcopalians and others, have a Liturgy of the Last Supper in some form every Sunday. I think the Lutherans have it often. Other denominations don’t have it every week or every day but they do have it. Christ said “do this in memory of me” (Luke 22:19). The Orthodox believe in the Real Presence the same as us. That’s a start. I think a second place to study would be to look at what the Early Church Father’s said from approximately 100ad-800ad? I forget where it ends. Lol If you want to read a good book by a Catholic on the Eucharist, I would recommend “Not by Bread Alone” by Robert Sungenis. He goes deep into scripture and he has a lot of quotes at the end by the Early Church Fathers that you might not have heard.