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Featured Universalism a strawman argument.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by 37818, Sep 30, 2022.

  1. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    That does not change the fact that the fire is what is described as everlasting. However, the punishment described in v.46 is everlasting in its consequences. It is final.
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 14:11, describes this, ". . . and they have no rest day nor night, . . ." And in Mark 9:48, ". . . Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. . . ."
    [Is your view as an annihilationist? Or what?]
     
    #42 37818, Oct 2, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2022
  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    There is particular redemption. Any universal redemption (which is what you are presenting) is universal payment for all sins, including the sin of unbelief. That makes your position universalism.
    Yet, you deny this, which means you must have a form of particular redemption. But, you deny that as well. The conclusion is that you don't know what you are talking about and ultimately you just want to be the one who determines your destiny rather than God determining your destiny. It all comes down to you demanding to have control.
     
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  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Are you going to say that only the so called elect were/are sinners? Or as Rom 5:7 says “the ungodly”. So what about the rest of humanity, were they not sinners, not ungodly? Calvinists keep insisting that Christ only died for them. But the bible does not make that distinction rather it is just the opposite. 1Ti_2:6 gave Himself a ransom for all.


    This is another true that you fail to accept

    Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
    Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
    Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
    Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Note it says those that believe not those that have been pre-selected to believe. You, Austin, are struggling with this truth
     
  5. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Austin you continue to read the bible through your philosophy of calvinism. You have placed calvinism as your authority over the bible. You deny or twist clear scripture when it does not agree with your view and when that pointed out to you you claim that others just do not understand the bible.
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do not hold annihilation as correct, but these verses do not definitely prove the view wrong. It depends on whether you view this as a description of the punishment or as the length of time one will experience the punishment.
     
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  7. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Conditional mortality (sometimes called annihilationism by opponents).

    The Mark 9:48 citation of Isaiah 66:24 explicitly teaches the destruction/death of the wicked.
     
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I too believe in the mortality of the soul.
    You have an unBiblical understanding of those passages. Regarding Christ, Psalms 22:6, Isaiah 53:10.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Not my view. To insist I believe what I do not believe is not honest.
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The same word is used for eternal life. So everyone would then come to an end. Christian universalism is not logical.
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That isn't what I mean.

    I mean the word could be used to describe the punishment.

    The words could be used to describe the finality of judgment rather than duration.

    I am not declaring this the case, but it is possible. Annihilationism has been around for a very long time (Justin Martyr, Arnobius). Even among scholars who don't share the view there is recognition it is a possible interpretation (e.g., FF Bruce).

    My point is not that it is correct, but that there are no actual proof texts against it.
     
  12. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Universalism applies to only one thing... SIN!... Salvation applies to only one thing... GOD!... His Mercy and Grace, which none deserve... Brother Glen:)

    It's not what you did for him, it's what he did for YOU!
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    As a temporary punishment is how Universalism interprets it.
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Not Biblical. Or explain.
     
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    So, Roman Catholicism, which also promotes general redemption. 37, look at the company you are keeping by supporting general redemption.
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You deny the know so salvation by denial of the Biblical general redemption with the accusation of Universalism and Catholicism.
    Remember John 8:44, ". . . the Devil . . . from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. . . ."
     
  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    " know so salvation?"

    You are entirely dependent on God alone to save, yet you are promoting your own reasoning as the means of knowing you are saved. Are you unaware that the heart is desperately wicked. Your reasoning could point to hell if you rely on it.
     
  18. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Yes, the accusation of a belief in Universalism by a Determinist is often attempted through a false dilemma leading to a strawman argument fallacy.
     
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  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Austin read these words and then explain what they say.
    Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
    Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

    Man can know they are saved or these words are meaningless and the offer of salvation is a fraud.
     
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    It's not a false dilemma. It is, however, people not willing to actually take their theory to its ultimate conclusion. Your unwillingness to be honest with your position is the problem you will not entertain.
     
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