PRIVIOUS REMARKS ON Election means that the Destiny of men is in The Hands of God.

AlanG

Yes and this is the same as when they are drawn Jn 6:44;12:32

 

This is the key when trying to explain this to someone. Unfortunately, there is a school of thought that logically keeps making one leap after another until they get to the place where everyone becomes paralyzed contemplating whether they are elect, instead of doing what they are supposed to do - repent and believe.

This is done 2 ways. One, by making faith into a work which by definition is impossible and is always portrayed in scripture as opposite works. Two, by making so much of a "limited" atonement that the main concern becomes whether you are in or out from the foundation of the universe rather than what a person should be doing which is following the realization of their state before God and the redemptive work of Christ and responding to that offer (which is totally real) that they can find forgiveness if they repent and believe.

 

Believing and repenting are works, they are actions performed by people.

 

AG

Election is one of the underline causes of anyone wanting to be saved according to Gods purpose in Christ. Also for one to desire Salvation Gods way, is evidence they are already saved, since by nature no man seeks, desires the True God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

I disagree with your definition. Faith by definition includes a deliberate renouncing of any ability to do anything to help your case and a reliance upon God's mercy based on what Jesus has done. Repentance starts as a change of mind before any kind of action is done where what you once loved you don't love any more and what you didn't like to do now you like to do. Actions follow. I have no problem with the idea that these things are wrought by the Holy Spirit if a person who says that will concede they they are actually done by the person.

 

It makes no difference if you disagree, both believing and repenting are acts done by man thus constituting them works. And furthermore if you or anyone conditions their salvation on doing those works, they are advocating salvation by works and not by grace.

 

davexr

Again repentance is an action, something man does, and its a gift that God gives and causes in those He saves Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins

 

Here's the problem. You say the above and won't even acknowledge what I said about these things being wrought by the Holy Spirit. I'm just trying to confirm what I feared - there is no getting you past the point where all this becomes the reaction of an automaton just like the fundamentalists on this board point out. Don't you see what you are doing here? You go far beyond the basic monergistic belief that salvation is all of God to a point where you deny the reality of any interaction between God and man. The problem with mans fallen nature is that he won't believe the gospel and repent of his sins without a direct action of the Holy Spirit. Even Wesley taught that. You have turned it into an issue where he isn't allowed to. This is a completely made up philosophy and does nothing but confuse people.

Election is true background information and the facts about it in the OP seem good to me. You hang on it to the point where the whole issue of the gospel becomes a study of election. Election is not what is preached and your overemphasis on it can actually be dangerous to someone who hears the word, and wants to respond to it, but then starts getting this information of "you can't do that because it's a work unless you were already saved". What a disaster.

 

What you have said reveals that you believe Salvation is conditioned on works, so it makes no difference what else you say.

 

That’s what it means to be at the mercy of God ie until God does something to us (the new birth or regeneration), man can do nothing.

man is not in a neutral position in regards to sun, but bound up, spiritually dead

 

Faith and repentance spoken of as "conditions" for salvation is found throughout reformed literature. All "condition" means here is that it is without it being present you do not have salvation. There is a theology where Jesus did his part and now the rest is up to you if you want to be saved. It is up to you to accept or reject this offer after proper evaluation and then you make a decision which will determine whether you go to Heaven or Hell. Now there are people who believe that you have always had the ability to examine the gospel and take a proper decision. Others believe you should be able to but God helps everyone equally by giving grace to assist in this. Others believe God gives grace to some and help to do this but not to everyone and people can resist this resulting in their own ruin. Still others believe God gives grace to some in the form of conviction, access to the word or preaching, and actual Holy Spirit enlightening or quickening to give the person the ability and desire to believe. Some believe that you are saved and as a result of being saved you do believe and later do good works. And finally, some believe that you have always been saved if you are one of the elect and there will be a time in your life where you realize this and begin to consciously follow Christ in faith and good works.

I think there are real Christians in all the above schools of thought. But there are some who think that we can do good deeds or enough acts of kindness to influence God to save us. Others believe we can go through a series of rituals or sacraments and officially subscribe to a set of doctrines and state that in a ceremony of some type. And most recently, and what I am most familiar with, some believe in a simplified version of this where the act of saying a formatted prayer is what will induce God to save you. These poor folks are not saved. But it is a mistake to put believing the gospel and repenting of sin in this category.

 

If one conditions believing and repenting as things man must do in order for God to save them, then that's works salvation. If a person says that believing and repenting are the fruit and evidence of Salvation, that's different and thats fine.

 

This has been explained to you numerous times as to how this works. There is a balance in scripture. The Puritans showed this in their preaching and later Calvinist pastors and theologians explained this as well. J.C. Ryle in "Holiness" and Horatius Bonar in several of his books explained this very carefully - as if they knew this type of reasoning was already happening. I can give you specific references and page numbers if that will help.

Are there any preachers or theologians that actually teach on a practical level that the elect get saved and that it is wrong to tell people to repent and believe because that is teaching works? Is there any scripture where someone is told not to repent and believe on the basis that they need to wait for salvation first?

 

I dont care how much you explain, if you condition salvation on your faith, repentance, or anything about you, in you, done by you, its a works salvation doctrine and must be rejected.

 

That is true. I don't know why you get on a forum where people are allowed to respond if you don't care what they say. You really have come up with this stuff by yourself and are completely unwilling to even discuss it. You are not a known theologian, an if you can't come up with somebody who agrees with you then that says a lot. I hope this is just a matter of emphasis, or maybe you are trying to make an argument against some semi-Pelagian group that you mistakenly put me in. But if not, you need to know that what you are proposing is a warped view of the gospel that has nothing to say to anyone because you are not allowed to say anything to anyone because any response would be a work.