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Righteous Faith - ?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Jan 14, 2023.

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  1. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    A serious question for all of you.

    Hab 2:4
    Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.


    Rom 1:17
    For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    Gal 3:11
    But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    Heb 10:38
    Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

    Why do you think none of the three in the NT is a verbatim quote from Habakkuk?

    I notice out of thirteen English translations of Mark 11:22 only one Youngs Literal Translation is
    Have faith of God. --- Which BTW I believe to be the correct translation.

    How do you think one would come about having the faith of God?

    I believe the the reason it is not verbatim is because of the following.

    And before the coming of the faith, (That spoken of in Habakkuk)
    under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith (Of God, Mark 11:22)
    we may be declared righteous, and the faith (Of God, Mark 11:22) having come, no more under a child-conductor are we,
    Gal 3:23-25

    for sin over you shall not have lordship, for ye are not under law, but under grace. Rom 6:14 Was it because of the death and resurrection of Jesus they went from being under law ti being under grace? Is that when, the faith, came?

    ? Righteous Faith?

    Some really, really want man to be responsible for his own righteousness.
     
    #1 percho, Jan 14, 2023
  2. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Came to me in the wee hours of the morning.

    How many Just Ones have there been?

    Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: [Acts 7:52 Is the Just One inclusive in who was murdered?]
    Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Acts 2:22,23
    From Acts 3:14,15 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince of life
    who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from (out of) death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, Hebrews 5:5 YLT

    Hebrews 5:6 YLT though being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,
    and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, Phil 2:8 = ? Shed his blood ?

    How is the above, "dead," Just One going to live?

    The obedience of, "what,"? "Faith"? Whose? Rom 3:24,25 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (though being Son, did learn the obedience) whom God (the Father) did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God --


    Is he a propitiation because of what you believe or because of what The Father believed, before the foundation of the world, relative to the Word became flesh, through a virgin woman, the Son of the Highest?

    He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: Luke 1:32
    And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Luke 1:35
     
    #2 percho, Jan 14, 2023
  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. ( ? Just ? ) Again the obedience of, "what"?

    Literally; The obedience of the of One

    IMHO The gospel, "is," and the gospel can be preached to the nations because of, Obedience of Faith --- εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως
    an exact phrase found twice in the Greek
     
    #3 percho, Jan 14, 2023
  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Now consider.

    for him who did not know sin, (?Just One?) in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness (?just?) of God in him. In his ? obedience of faith?

    2 Cor 5:19
     
    #4 percho, Jan 14, 2023
  5. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Here is the passage in Habakkuk. But first we must ask, "What has Habakkuk asked God in his prayer? Here is his questioning prayer:
    *Habakkuk 1:12-17*
    Are you not from everlasting, O Lord my God, my Holy One? We shall not die. O Lord, you have ordained them as a judgment, and you, O Rock, have established them for reproof. You who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong, why do you idly look at traitors and remain silent when the wicked swallows up the man more righteous than he? You make mankind like the fish of the sea, like crawling things that have no ruler. He brings all of them up with a hook; he drags them out with his net; he gathers them in his dragnet; so he rejoices and is glad. Therefore he sacrifices to his net and makes offerings to his dragnet; for by them he lives in luxury, and his food is rich. Is he then to keep on emptying his net and mercilessly killing nations forever?

    In verse 1 of chapter 2 we see Habakkuk waiting for God to answer him. Habakkuk expected a harsh rebuke to his call for God's justice. He gets his response and God tells him that a man is justified by faith.

    *Habakkuk 2:2-5*
    And the Lord answered me: “Write the vision; make it plain on tablets, so he may run who reads it. For still the vision awaits its appointed time; it hastens to the end—it will not lie. If it seems slow, wait for it; it will surely come; it will not delay. “Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith. “Moreover, wine is a traitor, an arrogant man who is never at rest. His greed is as wide as Sheol; like death he has never enough. He gathers for himself all nations and collects as his own all peoples.”

    So, the New Covenant writers, inspired by God, respond and quote Habakkuk to remind us that faith is a gift of God and that a person cannot be justified by works, but can only be justified by the faith that God gives the person as a gracious gift at the moment of God's gracious salvation.
     
    #5 AustinC, Jan 14, 2023
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I see another attempt to claim if God credits a person's faith as righteous faith, that makes man responsible for his own righteousness. Utter nonsense.
     
    #6 Van, Jan 15, 2023
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    How should Mark 11:22 be translation, faith of God or faith in God?

    God in the verse is in the "Genitive" and thus might be a Subjective Genitive, i.e. God's faith, or an Objective Genitive, i.e. our faith in God. We must look at the immediate context to discern which message is intended. Jesus is telling them what to do, which is for them to have faith, meaning they are to put their trust and devotion in God.
     
    #7 Van, Jan 15, 2023
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Why is not Romans 1:17 and exact, verbatim quote of Habakkuk 2:4.

    First to be a verbatim quote, the Greek would have to include the Hebrew text. So the actual question is why did the translators not translate both using the same English words. I do not know what was in the minds of the various translators of these two verses!

    So let us back up and see how we might interpret Habakkuk 2:4, the godly in conduct and character live based on their faithfulness. If we look at Romans 1:17 we see "shall live" is in the middle voice, thus the action is upon themselves, so based on their faithfulness. So both verses could be interpreted to mean exactly the same thing.
     
    #8 Van, Jan 15, 2023
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    How do you think one would come about having the faith of God?

    Think about this question. What verse says God has faith or puts His faith in something? The answer is none! We have lots of verses that say God is faithful, thus the faithfulness of God might be a sound interpretation. I think not because it does not fit contextually.

    In summary, Romans 1:7b might best be translated as "the godly shall emphatically live based on their faithfulness
     
    #9 Van, Jan 15, 2023
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