1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Were Old Testament Saints Placed in a "Holding Cell" Before the Cross?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by KenH, Jan 20, 2023.

Top Posters
Page 1 of 4
  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    43,035
    Likes Received:
    1,641
    Faith:
    Baptist
    During the past year I came across some people on Facebook who advocate that Old Testament saints were not justified before Christ finished His work on the cross. It was hard to try to pin them down but the implication of what they were teaching was that Old Testament saints were placed in what I would describe as a "holding cell" for hundreds, even thousands of years, until Christ finished His work on the cross.

    Is there anyone here who advocates such a thing or would like to try to defend such a notion?
     
    #1 KenH, Jan 20, 2023
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,826
    Likes Received:
    1,363
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Was Abraham in said "holding cell?". The upper Sheol. David wrote in Psalms 86:13, ". . . For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell. . . ."
    [Luke 16:19-31, Deuteronomy 32:22.]
    Ephesians 4:8, ". . . Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. . . ."
     
    #2 37818, Jan 20, 2023
  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    13,411
    Likes Received:
    1,761
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I’ve heard similar arguments from those who hold to “soul sleep” theology. I don’t think it’s supported in scripture.

    peace to you
     
    #3 canadyjd, Jan 20, 2023
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Holding cell? I haven't heard that before.

    But I would say that the OT saints' faith in God and His Word was counted as righteous, without this being the same as men today (post-resurrection) being justified.

    I'm not sure that's what you are talking about.
     
    #4 JonC, Jan 20, 2023
  5. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    43,035
    Likes Received:
    1,641
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I disagree. The elect have always been saved in the same way - from Genesis until the second coming and the establishment of the new heavens and earth - through the finished work of Christ Jesus on behalf of the God's elect and conditioned totally on Christ alone, whether prospectively or retrospectively.
     
    #5 KenH, Jan 20, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I disagree. But was that what you were talking about?
     
    #6 JonC, Jan 20, 2023
  7. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,895
    Likes Received:
    298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I believe and teach basically that.
     
    #7 George Antonios, Jan 20, 2023
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,270
    Likes Received:
    559
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What is "soul sleep" and who would hold to such an idea?
     
    #8 Silverhair, Jan 20, 2023
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    43,035
    Likes Received:
    1,641
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not sure if you are saying the same thing those folks were on Facebook. I sort of left that discussion with them as it was going nowhere and was becoming very heated and divisive. I could not pin them down as to terminology, but they were basically advocating for a form of, for lack of a better term, "limbo" for Old Testament saints until the cross, at least similar to the Catholic teaching of "Limbo of the Patriarchs".
     
    #9 KenH, Jan 20, 2023
    • Like Like x 1
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,826
    Likes Received:
    1,363
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Soul sleep," is a teaching of Seventh Day Adventist.
     
    #10 37818, Jan 20, 2023
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    13,411
    Likes Received:
    1,761
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As I understand it, “soul sleep” means a person is unaware of anything after they die until the day of judgment. They don’t go to heaven or hell. The soul “sleeps”

    peace to you
     
    #11 canadyjd, Jan 20, 2023
  12. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    38,981
    Likes Received:
    2,616
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As well as Jehovah Witness and Christadelphians
     
    #12 Salty, Jan 20, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2023
    • Informative Informative x 2
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yea....that isn't what I was saying.

    When I was a kid the SBC churches typically taught of "Paradise" for the saints. That or the "Bosom of Abraham". The idea was that the dead went to Sheol, and this was divided by a gulf that couldn't be crossed. One side was paradise and the other was a place of torture. But those who died were aware.

    It isn't something that concerned me then (or concerns me now) so I can't speak much on that idea.
     
    #13 JonC, Jan 20, 2023
  14. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    38,981
    Likes Received:
    2,616
    Faith:
    Baptist
    #14 Salty, Jan 20, 2023
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,826
    Likes Received:
    1,363
    Faith:
    Baptist
    #15 37818, Jan 20, 2023
  16. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,895
    Likes Received:
    298
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Every heresy has a grain of truth; that is how heresies can be successful.
     
    #16 George Antonios, Jan 21, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,826
    Likes Received:
    1,363
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Two of teachings against soul sleep: The rich man and Lazarus account in Luke 16:19-31. Note Abraham's appeal to Moses and prophets. And then Christ's post ascension 2 Corinthians 5:8 of believers being absent from their body being present with the Lord.
     
    #17 37818, Jan 21, 2023
  18. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    38,981
    Likes Received:
    2,616
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet, some say that is only a parable -thus it is not an actual fact
     
    #18 Salty, Jan 21, 2023
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,826
    Likes Received:
    1,363
    Faith:
    Baptist
    An interpretation that is purely based on it being a story. Abraham, Moses and prophets are not of parables. Deuteronomy 32:22, Song of Solomon 8:6, Psalms 86:13.
     
    #19 37818, Jan 21, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    38,981
    Likes Received:
    2,616
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In addition that parable is the only one which uses the actual name the individuals.
     
    #20 Salty, Jan 21, 2023
    • Informative Informative x 1
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 1 of 4
Loading...