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Featured Sanctification by God's Sovereign Grace as Opposed to "Lordship Salvation"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by KenH, Feb 15, 2023.

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  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Lordship Salvation is the doctrinal position that receiving Christ involves a strong emphasis on the initial commitment of the sinner to the Lordship of Christ by obedience to the Moral Law of God, repentance of their sins, a progressive increase in godliness, holiness and sinning less, as assurance of salvation. This is what they consider Christ Jesus as being Lord of your life. It also maintains the doctrine that makes Perseverance an emphasis over Preservation. Those who hold to Lordship see this, not only as a requirement, but as already mentioned - a basis for their assurance. Anything less than this emphasis they consider to be “easy believism” in their mind. Lordship Salvation says a lack of obedience in a person’s life is warrant to doubt that one is even saved. Just how much obedience is required for acceptance with God is not clearly spelled out in most Lordship camps, but you can gather that it is never enough to get rid of the burden on their backs.

    ...

    It does seem that most who advocate Lordship Salvation do lift up popular Arminian preachers and theologians who were famous for supposedly "living godly lives", such as heretics like John Wesley, for example. Many of these heretics are the heroes of the Lordship advocates. The problem is, Arminianism is clearly a false gospel and Arminians do NOT have a proper foundation for anything they say about "holy living" since they condition salvation on the sinner in the first place.

    Let us be clear that this is not at all a defense for an Arminian Baptist position on Non-Lordship Salvation because they have no real ground for eternal salvation and have a christ who died for many who end up in hell. They have no clue how God saves sinners in the first place.

    - excerpt from Pastor Scott Price's webpage on "Sanctification by God's Sovereign Grace as Opposed to "Lordship Salvation" - Lordship Salvation
     
    #1 KenH, Feb 15, 2023
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  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Yes but even John MacArthur promotes it. Curious to see who comes on here to dispute and/ or defend the concept.
     
    #2 Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 15, 2023
  3. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    That is a fair definition of what it is. It probably was developed in the modern form to correct the disaster that happens in the way "decisions for Christ" are done. I have been to a funeral where the pastor told about the deceased's mom finding a note in his Bible from when he made a decision at camp at 10 and even though he never showed any interest in Christ he had to have been saved. Mac did a good job of calling that out.

    It also is a counter to the "carnal Christian" doctrine where you are a Christian but you are still on the throne but that's OK but you just won't be happy or blessed. Anybody ever in Campus Crusade knows about that.

    Paul Washer's "Shocking Youth Message" on youtube is a good example of someone else calling out the easy believism.
    Interestingly, a lot of reformed theologians say it was not helpful if not outright wrong. Plug it into the Puritan Board and you get mixed reviews.
     
    #3 DaveXR650, Feb 15, 2023
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  4. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    #4 KenH, Feb 15, 2023
  5. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    @KenH . For 3 bucks on Kindle I might take a chance on it myself. Only thing is the author said most proponents of Lordship Salvation get their theology from memes, sermon jams, and internet back and forth. Problem is, he is also going to have to take on John Owen and Jonathan Edwards and the rest of the pesky Puritans.
     
    #5 DaveXR650, Feb 15, 2023
  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    “Lordship Salvation” as I understand it reflects the Biblical truth that salvation (a right relationship with God) always results in a transformed life that desires obedience to the commands of our Lord and Savior.

    1. God Holy Spirit indwells the believer.
    2. God disciplines those He loves
    3. God Holy Spirit convicts the believer of sin
    4. God Holy Spirit leads believers in all truth
    5. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God
    6. Believers are to work out their salvation in fear and trembling.

    It seems reasonable that believers examine themselves daily (as Jesus said to take up your cross daily), and seek to glorify God by following Jesus as He commanded us to do.

    I have often said I do not declare people to be saved or unsaved. The best any of us can do is to assess whether we are walking in a manner worthy of a profession of faith in Jesus Christ. If we are not, then why not?

    Lordship Salvation advocates, that I have read, are focused on personal spiritual development and I don’t see that as a bad thing.

    peace to you
     
    #6 canadyjd, Feb 15, 2023
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  7. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    It is not the elect that do it, it is God as the following verse after Philippians 2:12 states. Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
     
    #7 KenH, Feb 15, 2023
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  8. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Human behavior is not the gospel. Human behavior is not salvific. Salvation is ALL by Christ ALONE. The elect do nothing on their own to be saved and do nothing on their own to remain saved. Saving faith is all about looking to Christ as the Lord our Righteousness. Saving faith is not about what the elect do, think, or decide based on their own efforts or willpower. Faith is a gift from God. Repentance from dead works(looking to anyone or anything other than Christ and His finished work ALONE) is a gift from God.

    In Sonny Hernandez's new book that I linked to above, he quotes from John MacArthur's book, The Gospel According to Jesus :

    "Saving faith is more than just understanding the facts and mentally acquiescing. It is inseparable from repentance, surrender, and a supernatural longing to obey."

    As Sonny Hernandez wrote in rebuttal in his new book I linked to above:

    "A Bible-believing Christian would say, “Repentance, surrender, and obedience are important truths, but they are not conditions of salvation that merit God’s favor. The gospel is about the righteousness of Christ, excluding works, or Christ plus nothing.”
     
    #8 KenH, Feb 15, 2023
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  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I don’t disagree and I doubt anyone holding to LS would either. That is the whole point. God Holy Spirit works within us to do God’s will. Part of God’s will is to follow the commands of Jesus. If a professing Christian isn’t following the commands of Jesus, why not?

    peace to you
     
    #9 canadyjd, Feb 15, 2023
  10. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    There is a huge difference between the Biblical teaching that the elect do the specific works that God specifically ordained for that particular one of the elect to do(Ephesians 2:10), and the false teaching that one is to do works to make God "happy"(or if they don't do something it will make God "unhappy") or for mercenary reasons(wanting a bigger mansion or a spot closer to the throne of God).
     
    #10 KenH, Feb 15, 2023
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  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I don’t know a single person that holds to LS salvation that believes human behavior is the gospel or is salvific. I certainly do not believe that, so no need to bring it up again because we agree.

    Totally agree that salvation (a right relationship with God) is by God’s grace alone through faith in Christ alone.

    Totally agree the elect do nothing to gain or maintain their salvation.

    Concerning MacArthur’s quote… it is a reference to an old heresy called “Sandemanism (sp)” which equated obtaining salvation (a right relationship with God) to mere mental assent to certain facts… Jesus is God, Jesus died in a cross etc… Salvation comes by being born again of God Holy Spirit, by God’s grace, which results in God Holy Spirit indwelling.

    And MacArthur would agree, I think, that repentance, surrender obedience do not merit God’s saving grace but rather he would argue, I think, they will always accompany saving faith that is the result of God’s saving grace.

    I really don’t see anything about LS that is not directly tied to scripture.

    peace to you
     
    #11 canadyjd, Feb 15, 2023
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  12. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    We have vastly different views on the subject.
     
    #12 KenH, Feb 15, 2023
  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Ok, does scripture say it is possible for a Christian to grieve God Holy Spirit? If Gid is “grieved” by our behavior is He happy or unhappy with our behavior?

    I have never heard any advocate of LS arguing for a bigger mansion or a closer spot to God. I certainly don’t believe that.

    The only thing I hear from advocates of LS is that each Christian should examine their walk with God in a daily basis and strive to do the things that are according to His will. I am sure you agree with that. I really don’t see the issue.

    peace to you
     
    #13 canadyjd, Feb 15, 2023
  14. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Yes we do. As long as we focus on scripture, we should be able to have a good discussion.

    peace to you
     
    #14 canadyjd, Feb 15, 2023
  15. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    God is always satisfied with His Son, Christ Jesus. The God's elect are always in Christ Jesus. Therefore, God is always satisfied with His elect.

    The gospel of Christ is not symbolized by the DAISY - Days He loves me, and days He doesn't.
     
    #15 KenH, Feb 15, 2023
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  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    @canadyjd,
    I hold LS is not Biblical. Case in point, Matthew 7:21-23. Confessing Jesus to be Lord and LORD God is as a good work. I hold salvation is an easy gift to obtain. Our sin nature would make salvation impossible. And for many it does. Wanting to trust in works.
     
    #16 37818, Feb 15, 2023
  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I don’t really disagree with you that God is always satisfied with Jesus. I do not think that means He is always satisfied with us. Perhaps you could provide scripture that says no matter what we do, God will always be satisfied with us?

    The question is…. Does scripture tell us we can grieve God Holy Spirit? If God is grieved, is He happy or unhappy with our behavior or do you believe God doesn’t really care what we do because we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ?

    If God doesn’t care what we do, why does scripture tell us He disciplines those He loves? If scripture tells us God disciplines those He Loves and someone is living in open rebellion with God yet receives no discipline from God, should that person have assurance of salvation based on mental agreement about certain facts about Jesus?

    I believe LS would reject the idea that someone should have assurance of salvation while living in rebellion to God’s commands.

    Again, I do not pretend to know if someone is saved or unsaved. The best I can do is look at myself and decide if I’m walking in a manner worthy of a profession of faith in Jesus and encourage others to do the same.

    peace to you
     
    #17 canadyjd, Feb 15, 2023
  18. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The passage you quoted, Matthew 7:21-23, has Jesus rejecting those who are not doing the will of God the Father. How exactly does that support your belief?

    peace to you
     
    #18 canadyjd, Feb 15, 2023
  19. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. That would be a complete absurdity. It's an impossibility and a contradiction. MacArthur made LS popular with his books but he didn't invent it. John Owen was famous for his use of the term "Lord Christ". Guess where he came down on it?
     
    #19 DaveXR650, Feb 15, 2023
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  20. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I didn’t think it was a new idea in Christianity. I first heard of LS about 20 years ago. The talk was all entered on Jonny Mac, so I checked out his website.

    All the accusations of a “works based salvation” are simply untrue, but they continue.

    Thanks for the tip of Owen. I think I have one of his books, I’ll look it up again when I get time.

    peace to you
     
    #20 canadyjd, Feb 15, 2023
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