Baptist Incompatibility

"Major Baptist convictions include: Believer’s baptism; “soul competence” and “soul freedom”; local church autonomy; religious liberty for all; and the separation of church and state."

Actually the above only applies to non-Calvinistic Baptists. But on the other side of the ledger, we have Believer's baptism, adherence to Reformed Soteriolgy, and separation of church and state.

On one side we have soul competence, soul freedom of choice, and on the other side, total spiritual inability of the lost.

"Conviction No. 2: “Soul competence” and “soul freedom.” These 17th century words mean every person is spiritually competent to open the Bible and, led by the Spirit, interpret it for their life and faith. And if competent should be free."

As should be obvious, the two views (soul freedom and total spiritual inability) are incompatible, yet both claim to be Baptist.

In Matthew 13, soil #1 suffers from the inability to receive the gospel message. However, the false doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability claims that "soil #1 condition" is the condition of each and every person from conception to regeneration. Utter nonsense. Verses after verse tells us that the lost have sought God, have willed to be saved, have engaged in ministry, and so forth and so on.

Another example of incompatibility is that a local church does not have the liberty or freedom to decide for themselves what they believe, they must adhere to Reformed Soteriolgy imported from Reformed Theology.

According to Reformed Soteriolgy, God instills His faith via Irresistible Grace into the lost. But no explanation is offered as to why God would instill "little faith" rather than abundant faith, or live faith.

"Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto. ( Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44 )"

Here is one of the Doctrines of Reformed Soteriolgy that is incompatible with soul freedom. But do these cited verses actually support the claimed doctrine? Lets take a look!

Romans 5:6 (NASB)
For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Contextually while we were trapped in our sinful state, separated from God and unable to do anything to merit reconciliation, Christ died for "the ungodly." Does this say we are unable to will to be saved as Romans 9:16 teaches? No, it says our willing or working to be saved does not contribute to or merit our salvation.

Romans 8:7 (NASB)
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Here we have the condition of having a mind set on the flesh, i.e. fleshly desires, which is not able to be subject to the law of God. The bone of contention is whether the lost spiritually dead are able to set their minds on any spiritual things such as spiritual milk. Certainly the idea that the mind cannot focus on things other than fleshly desires is unsupported speculation. Recall Romans 9:16.

Ephesians 2:1(NASB)
And you were dead in your offenses and sins,

Here we have the definitional argument, dead equals total spiritual inability, rather than dead equals being separated from God due to being in an unholy sinful state. The consequences of our trespasses and sins resulted in our being separated from God, like death causes separation from the living. Again, this verse does not say we are unable to set our mind on spiritual milk as taught by Romans 9:16.

Titus 3:3-5 (NASB)
For we too were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Here the Greek word translated "enslaved" actually refers to serving or seeking to satisfy various lusts (i.e. fleshly desires). So once again so actual support for total spiritual inability is provided by the text.

John 6:44 (NASB)
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Here, again, is a definitional argument, "draw" is interpreted to mean compel by irresistible grace, because the lost cannot be drawn (attracted by God's lovingkindness) by the Father. Such a view denies "draw" is used metaphorically to mean attract. But as Romans 9:16 teaches, some of the lost are attracted to Christ such that they will and work to be saved.

In summary, no verse or passage in scripture actually supports the claim that all the lost are unable to seek God and trust in Christ, the Baptist distinctive of soul freedom.

Van said:

In Matthew 13, soil #1 suffers from the inability to receive the gospel message. However, the false doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability claims that "soil #1 condition" is the condition of each and every person from conception to regeneration. Utter nonsense. Verses after verse tells us that the lost have sought God, have willed to be saved, have engaged in ministry, and so forth and so on.

Click to expand...

from: HOLY SPIRIT INFLUENCES on the lost that leaves them lost.

II. SPIRITUAL INFLUENCES.

A. In regeneration permanent work is done in the spirit of man.

His heart is made to love God and his eyes are opened to see spiritual truths.

That faith which is a fruit of regeneration can never be overthrown (I John 5:4-5).

4 "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

All this is to be attributed to the power of the Holy Spirit (John 3:5).

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

B. While nothing short of the new birth can save a sinner, yet there are lesser works of the Spirit that many mistake for regeneration.

Only God knows how close some come in appearance who are never saved.

Have we not known men who seemed to love God and truth, yet fell away?

Perseverance seems to be the main mark that distinguishes regeneration from the passing effects of common grace.

This is so evident that former theologians spoke of the spiritual influences of common grace as temporary grace.

We want to notice just three of the many Scriptures that prove this.

C. In Matthew 13:1-24, we have both the parable of the sower and Christ's inspired exposition of the same.

This parable taught the disciples what to expect in their preaching ministries and has often given light to preachers since that time.

Perhaps the most important lesson of the parable is that many would receive God's Word and profess Christ whose lives later would prove them to be Christless.

While man by nature hates God, yet some because of the Spirit's influence receive His Word with joy (v. 20),

20 "But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;"

but the change is not lasting.

True faith is victorious, but temporary faith can be overcome by trials (v. 21),

21 "Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."

temptations (v. 22),

22 "He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful."

and heresies (II Timothy 2: 1.8).

18 "Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some."

The parable of the sower is everywhere illustrated in gospel-preaching churches today.

D. In II Peter 2:20-22, we have another case of those who are influenced by the gospel, yet later reveal their unregenerate state.

The author has often found it helpful to compare this Scripture with II Peter, 1:3-4 to bring out the difference between common and saving grace.

1. Let us first notice the characteristics of those in II Peter 2:20-22 who experienced only a temporary change.

a. They escaped for a while certain of the more gross sins. (v. 20).

20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

b. They received a degree of enlightenment (v. 21).

21 "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

This reminds us of Balaam who received such a view of divine things as to cause him to say, "Let me die the death of the righteous" (Numbers 23: 10) yet he died without Christ.

10 "Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!"

c. They fell away (verses 20b-21b).

"...they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

"...after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

Peter compares them to hogs and dogs who have been cleaned up for a while, but eventually, their true natures are revealed as they return to their old habits.

22 "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

2. Let us note the characteristics of the regenerated man in II Peter 1:3-4.

3 "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

a. They not only escaped the more gross sins but had their lusts subdued.

"having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

b. They were "called" to glory and virtue.

"through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:"

c. They were "partakers of the divine nature."

"that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature",

d. They were given "all things that pertain to life and godliness," rather than just certain influences.

"hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,"

e. There is no mention of their falling away.

...

con't

John Gill, below in blue, babe....,
I C&P him because he knows how to handle a difficult passage.

E. The last Scripture we will notice is Hebrews 6:4-6.

4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,

"...such are meant, who are so enlightened as to see the evil effects of sin, but not the evil that is in sin;

to see the good things which come by Christ, but not the goodness that is in Christ;

so as to reform externally, but not to be sanctified internally;

to have knowledge of the Gospel doctrinally, but not experimentally;

yea, to have such light into it, as to be able to preach it to others, and yet be destitute of the grace of God:

"...and have tasted of the heavenly gift,"

"...but there are others who taste, but dislike what they taste;

have no true love to Christ, and faith in him;

or have only a carnal taste of him, know him only after the flesh, or externally, not inwardly and experimentally;

or they have only a superficial taste"

"...and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,"

"...but by the Holy Ghost is sometimes meant the gifts of the Spirit, ordinary or extraordinary, ( 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 ) and so here;

"and men may be said to be partakers of the Holy Ghost, to whom he gives wisdom and prudence in things natural and civil;

"the knowledge of things divine and evangelical, in an external way;

"the power of working miracles, of prophesying, of speaking with tongues, and of the interpretation of tongues; for the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost seem chiefly designed, which some, in the first times of the Gospel, were partakers of, who had no share in special grace,
( Matthew 7:22 Matthew 7:23 ) ( 1 Corinthians 13:2 1 Corinthians 13:3 ).

5 "And have tasted the good word of God,"

"...there is such a taste of this word as is disrelishing, as in profane sinners, and open opposers and persecutors of the word, or as in hypocrites and formal professors;

"which is only an assent to the Scriptures, as the revelation of God, or a superficial knowledge of the doctrines of the Gospel without the experience of them, and a temporal faith in them, and a natural affection for them, and pleasure with them for a time;

"as the Jews, and Herod with John's ministry, and the stony ground hearers."

"...and the powers of the world to come,"

"...the (dunameiv), miracles and mighty works in the former part of the Gospel dispensation, or times of the Messiah, the Jews' world to come, (See Gill on Hebrews 2:5), are intended; which many, as Judas and others, were able to perform, who were not sincere Christians, or true believers."

con't

6 "If they shall fall away,"

"but falling away, so as to perish, may be supposed, and is true of many professors of religion; who may fall from the profession of the Gospel they have made, and from the truth of it, and into an open denial of it;

"yea, into hatred and persecution of what they once received the external knowledge of; and so shall fall short of heaven, and into condemnation."

"...to renew them again unto repentance;

"these apostates before described had only a show of repentance, a counterfeit one; such as Cain, Pharaoh, and Judas had;

"and consequently, the renewing of them again to repentance, is to that which they only seemed to have, and to make pretensions unto;

"now to renew them to a true repentance, which they once made a profession of, the apostle says is a thing "impossible": the meaning of which is not only that it is difficult;

"or that it is rare and unusual;

"or that it is unsuitable and improper;

"but it is absolutely impossible: it is impossible to these men to renew themselves to repentance;

"renovation is the work of the Holy Ghost, and not of man;

"and repentance is God's gift, and not in man's power;

"and it is impossible for ministers to renew them, to restore and bring them back, by true repentance;

"yea, it is impossible to God himself, not through any impotence in him, but from the nature of the sin these men are guilty of;

"for by the high, though outward attainments they arrive unto, according to the description of them, their sin is the sin against the Holy Ghost, for which no sacrifice can be offered up, and of which there is no remission, and so no repentance;

"for these two go together, and for which prayer is not to be made;

"see ( Matthew 12:32 ) ( Hebrews 10:26 Hebrews 10:27 ) ( 1 John 4:16 ) and chiefly because to renew such persons to repentance, is repugnant to the determined will of God, who cannot go against his own purposes and resolutions;

"and so the Jews F12 speak of repentance being withheld by God from Pharaoh, and, from the people of Israel;

"of which they understand ( Exodus 9:16 ) ( Isaiah 6:10 ) ( 2 Chronicles 36:16 )"

"seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh,

"it was for asserting himself to be the Son of God that he was crucified;

"and his being so puts an infinite virtue in his sufferings and death;

"and it heightens the sin of the Jews, and of these apostates, in crucifying him.

"He was once crucified, and it is both impossible and unnecessary that he should be, properly speaking, "crucified afresh", or "again";

"it is impossible, because he is risen from the dead, and will never die more;

"it is unnecessary because he has finished and completed what he suffered the death of the cross for;

"but men may be said to crucify him again, when, by denying him to be the Son of God, they justify the crucifixion of him on that account; and when they lessen and vilify the virtue of his blood and sacrifice;

"and when both by errors and immoralities they cause him to be blasphemed, and evil spoken of;

"and when they persecute him in his members: and this may be said to be done "to themselves afresh";

"not that Christ was crucified for them before, but that they now crucify him again, as much as in them lies;

or "with themselves", in their own breasts and minds, and to their own destruction. Now this being the case, it makes their renewal to repentance impossible;

"because, as before observed, the sin they commit is unpardonable;

"it is a denial of Christ, who gives repentance;

"and such who sin it must arrive to such hardness of heart as to admit of no repentance;

"and it is just with God to give up such to a final impenitence, as those, who knowingly and out of malice and envy crucified Christ, had neither pardon nor repentance;

"and besides, this sin of denying Christ to be the Son of God, and Saviour of men, after so much light and knowledge, precludes the way of salvation, unless Christ was to be crucified again, which is impossible;"

"and put him to an open shame."

"Christ was put to open shame at the time of his apprehension, prosecution, and crucifixion;

"and so he is by such apostates, who was he on earth, would treat him in the same manner the Jews did;

"and who do traduce him as an impostor and a deceiver, and give the lie to his doctrines, and expose him by their lives, and persecute him in his saints."

"Some of the Jews who professed Christ were in danger of falling away.

"The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews warns them that those who deny Christ after having experienced such gracious influences of God's Spirit are in a hopeless condition.

"We think of men like Balaam, Judas, Saul, Demas, or the Israelites who died in the wilderness.

"They experienced the breath of heaven, yet died lost and undone."

"Major Baptist convictions include: Believer’s baptism; “soul competence” and “soul freedom”; local church autonomy; religious liberty for all; and the separation of church and state."

Actually the above only applies to non-Calvinistic Baptists. But on the other side of the ledger, we have Believer's baptism, adherence to Reformed Soteriolgy, and separation of church and state.

On one side we have soul competence, soul freedom of choice, and on the other side, total spiritual inability of the lost.

"Conviction No. 2: “Soul competence” and “soul freedom.” These 17th century words mean every person is spiritually competent to open the Bible and, led by the Spirit, interpret it for their life and faith. And if competent should be free."

As should be obvious, the two views (soul freedom and total spiritual inability) are incompatible, yet both claim to be Baptist.

In Matthew 13, soil #1 suffers from the inability to receive the gospel message. However, the false doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability claims that "soil #1 condition" is the condition of each and every person from conception to regeneration. Utter nonsense. Verses after verse tells us that the lost have sought God, have willed to be saved, have engaged in ministry, and so forth and so on.

Another example of incompatibility is that a local church does not have the liberty or freedom to decide for themselves what they believe, they must adhere to Reformed Soteriolgy imported from Reformed Theology.

According to Reformed Soteriolgy, God instills His faith via Irresistible Grace into the lost. But no explanation is offered as to why God would instill "little faith" rather than abundant faith, or live faith.

Luke 12:28 (NET)

"Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto. ( Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44 )"

Here is one of the Doctrines of Reformed Soteriolgy that is incompatible with soul freedom. But do these cited verses actually support the claimed doctrine? Lets take a look!

Romans 5:6 (NASB)
For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Contextually while we were trapped in our sinful state, separated from God and unable to do anything to merit reconciliation, Christ died for "the ungodly." Does this say we are unable to will to be saved as Romans 9:16 teaches? No, it says our willing or working to be saved does not contribute to or merit our salvation.

Romans 8:7 (NASB)
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Here we have the condition of having a mind set on the flesh, i.e. fleshly desires, which is not able to be subject to the law of God. The bone of contention is whether the lost spiritually dead are able to set their minds on any spiritual things such as spiritual milk. Certainly the idea that the mind cannot focus on things other than fleshly desires is unsupported speculation. Recall Romans 9:16.

Ephesians 2:1(NASB)
And you were dead in your offenses and sins,

Here we have the definitional argument, dead equals total spiritual inability, rather than dead equals being separated from God due to being in an unholy sinful state. The consequences of our trespasses and sins resulted in our being separated from God, like death causes separation from the living. Again, this verse does not say we are unable to set our mind on spiritual milk as taught by Romans 9:16.

Titus 3:3-5 (NASB)
For we too were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Here the Greek word translated "enslaved" actually refers to serving or seeking to satisfy various lusts (i.e. fleshly desires). So once again so actual support for total spiritual inability is provided by the text.

John 6:44 (NASB)
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Here, again, is a definitional argument, "draw" is interpreted to mean compel by irresistible grace, because the lost cannot be drawn (attracted by God's lovingkindness) by the Father. Such a view denies "draw" is used metaphorically to mean attract. But as Romans 9:16 teaches, some of the lost are attracted to Christ such that they will and work to be saved.

In summary, no verse or passage in scripture actually supports the claim that all the lost are unable to seek God and trust in Christ, the Baptist distinctive of soul freedom.

Van said:

“soul freedom”;

Click to expand...

Van said:

soul freedom of choice,

Click to expand...

Van said:

"Conviction No. 2: “Soul competence” and “soul freedom.” These 17th century words mean every person is spiritually competent to open the Bible and, led by the Spirit, interpret it for their life and faith. And if competent should be free."

Click to expand...

The word "Spirit" in this paragraph is capitalized. If the intention of it's author is suggesting "The Holy Spirit" by this, I suggest that Blood-bought children of God, to whom the Bible means something, to do as we are instructed in The Word of God and "try the spirits", capital letter or no capital letter, "whether they are of God.

I John 4:1; "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

Van said:

both claim to be Baptist.

Click to expand...

Van said:

In summary, no verse or passage in scripture actually supports the claim that all the lost are unable to seek God and trust in Christ, the Baptist distinctive of soul freedom.

Click to expand...

For anyone curious as to what Van is talking about, here we have "Pastor Jessica", apparently claiming to be a 'baptist'.

She says, "Here is an example of soul freedom in action."

I say, "strong work, Van."

Read what she says for yourself, but remember: you can't get this minute or so of time back that it takes to read it:

What is a Baptist?
Soul Freedom
Jul 16
Written By Pastor Jessica

"Our second distinctive Baptist belief is in soul freedom - this is the affirmation that each person has the right and responsibility to deal personally with God without the imposition of creed, clergy, or civil government.

"Here is an example of soul freedom in action.

"Two pairs of friends just got engaged to each other. At least one person in each of these relationships work in Baptist churches.

"Both couples are preparing to move in with each other.

"One friend told me that he and his fiancé were not planning on getting married until next year, and that their living arrangement had come into question at the church where he works.

"He and his fiancé had given a great deal of thought and consideration to their moving in together - they’d prayed about it and felt as if moving in before marriage was the right choice for them.

"The other couple, however, had also given a great deal of thought and consideration into moving in together before their wedding.

"After praying about it, they decided that they felt as though what was right for them was to go ahead and take all the legal actions necessary for marriage, while still waiting on an actual wedding ceremony.

"These two pairs of friends faced the exact same dilemma, took the exact same approach (ie: prayer) and arrived at the exact opposite conclusions.

"What does this mean?

"It means that both sets of friends exercised their right to soul freedom and have dealt personally with God and felt called by God in different directions.

"It isn’t up to any creed or clergy member to decide which couple handled this situation rightly or wrongly - it’s simply between them and God."

...
Maybe one of you with a broader knowledge of world religions can help me with this thing, if we are allowed to have the religious liberty to say here.

I know that is masquerading, disguised, and trying to pass itself off as something else, like The Free Agency of Man, but my first knee-jerk reaction was that it is an Occult witchcraft spell or something similar.

That's why I wanted to ask.

Ever wonder why endless posts address doctrines I did not present?

Lets try again:

"every person is spiritually competent to open the Bible and, led by the Spirit, interpret it for their life and faith."

Now what does the statement mean by the phrase "led by the Spirit?" Well certainly those born anew and indwelt with our "Helper" can be "led by our indwelt Holy Spirit" as we study God's word.

But the Bible, including the OT Law, is the word of God, and is the work product of the Spirit inspiring the human authors. Thus Galatians 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith" presents the lost being led by the Spirit as they read and meditate concerning their Bible.

This view reflects the Baptist doctrine of soul freedom, and is incompatible with Reformed Theology.

Van said:

Ever wonder why endless posts address doctrines I did not present?

Click to expand...

This is these are the 'doctrines' you presented.

Van said:

"Conviction No. 2: “Soul competence” and “soul freedom.”

Click to expand...

You left them out:

Van said:

"Conviction No. 2: “Soul competence” and “soul freedom.” These 17th century words mean every person is spiritually competent to open the Bible and, led by the Spirit, interpret it for their life and faith. And if competent should be free."

Click to expand...

Van said:

Now what does the statement mean by the phrase "led by the Spirit?" Well certainly those born anew and indwelt with our "Helper" can be "led by our indwelt Holy Spirit" as we study God's word.

Click to expand...

uh huh. Nice clarification.

Van said:

Thus Galatians 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith" presents the lost being led by the Spirit as they read and meditate concerning their Bible.

Click to expand...

uh huh. You said, about “Soul competence” and “soul freedom":

Van said:

"every person is spiritually competent to open the Bible and, led by the Spirit, interpret it for their life and faith."

Click to expand...

Actually, this post Baptist Incompatibility reflects the so-called 'baptist' doctrine of soul freedom:

(These people are 'baptist in name only)

What is a Baptist?
Soul Freedom
Jul 16
Written By Pastor Jessica

Van said:

This view reflects the Baptist doctrine of soul freedom, and is incompatible with Reformed Theology.

Click to expand...

"SOUL FREEDOM needs to be incompatible with EVERY SYSTEM of THEOLOGY.

THEOLOGY MEANS "THE STUDY of GOD."

"SOUL FREEDOM" is the SOLE EXALTATION of HUMANISM.

(I am not a Reformed 'Baptist', but this malicious deception, "SOUL FREEDOM",
is anathema, so I thought I would comment.

Van said:

"Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto. ( Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44 )"

Click to expand...

This is a good definition of Total Depravity.
...

Van said:

Romans 5:6 (NASB)
For while we were still helpless

Click to expand...

This is a good definition of Total Depravity.

Van said:

Contextually while we were trapped in our sinful state, separated from God and unable to do anything to merit reconciliation, Christ died for "the ungodly." Does this say we are unable to will to be saved as Romans 9:16 teaches?

Click to expand...

The answer is???

Van said:

No

Click to expand...

???

So, "while we were still helpless" "we are" able "to will to be saved"???

Supported??? by Romans 9:16(???):

16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy."

This is just another good definition of Total Depravity.

So, saying it in support of
"while we were still helpless" "we are" able "to will to be saved"???

Different.

Then, I don't know if this is how he meant to say this:

Van said:

it says our willing or working to be saved does not contribute to or merit our salvation

Click to expand...

???

Because it agrees with the position of Total Depravity and is not another example of Total Depravity (?)
...

Van said:

Romans 8:7 (NASB)
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;

Click to expand...

This is a good definition of Total Depravity.

Rom 8:7 - Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 - So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The KJV is also a good definition of Total Depravity.

Van said:

The bone of contention is whether the lost spiritually dead are able to set their minds on any spiritual things such as spiritual milk. Certainly the idea that the mind cannot focus on things other than fleshly desires is unsupported speculation. Recall Romans 9:16.

Click to expand...

"The bone of contention is whether the lost spiritually dead are able to set their minds on any spiritual things such as spiritual milk."

Well, let's see:

"the lost spiritually dead"
= "are able to set their" lost spiritually dead "minds"
= "on any spiritual things" + "spiritual milk"???????

There have been other instances where "Math Didn't Work", so O.K.

"the mind set on the flesh" that "is hostile toward God"???

Guess again.

Whatever.

But then to argue, "Certainly the idea that the mind cannot focus on things other than fleshly desires is unsupported speculation."

Meaning?; "the lost spiritually dead" "mind"
CAN "focus on" SPIRITUAL "things"???

I don't think so.

Come on, man. Give it up.

Again; Romans 9:16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

Again, this is a good definition of Total Depravity, but it has to be a misprint.

...

Van said:

Ephesians 2:1(NASB)
And you were dead in your offenses and sins,

Click to expand...

This is a good definition of Total Depravity.

Van said:

dead equals being separated from God due to being in an unholy sinful state. The consequences of our trespasses and sins resulted in our being separated from God, like death causes separation from the living. Again, this verse does not say we are unable to set our mind on spiritual milk as taught by Romans 9:16.

Click to expand...

Changing and saying "dead" "equals being separated from God due to being in an unholy sinful state" isn't enough of a change to change the meaning this time.

Then, why in the world would the mind of man
say "sins resulted in our being separated from God"
"does not say we are unable to set our mind on spiritual milk"???

Where did that come from??? I don't get it.

Except as an example of Total Depravity?

Then, as taught by Romans 9:16 has to be a misprint.

16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy"???
...
con't

Van said:

Titus 3:3-5 (NASB)
For we too were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

Click to expand...

This is a good definition of Total Depravity.

Van said:

"enslaved" actually refers to serving or seeking to satisfy various lusts (i.e. fleshly desires).

Click to expand...

Why in the world would the mind of man
change "enslaved" to serving or seeking ???

I don't get it.


Except as an example of Total Depravity?

Van said:

So once again so actual support for total spiritual inability is provided by the text.

Click to expand...

He meant to say: "So once again" no "actual support for total spiritual inability is provided by the text."

After "enslaved" is changed to serving or seeking(???)
...

Van said:

John 6:44 (NASB)
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him

Click to expand...

This is a good definition of Total Depravity.

Van said:

"draw" is interpreted to mean compel by irresistible grace, because the lost cannot be drawn (attracted by God's lovingkindness) by the Father.

Click to expand...

Did he mean to say this?

Why in the world would the mind of man say
the lost cannot be drawn (attracted by God's lovingkindness) by the Father.???

Except as an example of Total Depravity?

Van said:

Such a view denies "draw" is used metaphorically to mean attract.

Click to expand...

Why in the world would the mind of man
change "draw" to "attract"???

Except as an example of Total Depravity?

Van said:

But as Romans 9:16 teaches, some of the lost are attracted to Christ such that they will and work to be saved.

Click to expand...

16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy."

Once more, this is a good definition of Total Depravity.

And "Romans 9:16 teaches" what???

"some of the lost are attracted to Christ
such that they will and work to be saved"???

Why in the world would the mind of man say this???

Except as an example of Total Depravity?

16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy"???
...

Van said:

In summary, no verse or passage in scripture actually supports the claim that all the lost are unable to seek God and trust in Christ,

Click to expand...

I don't know why this says this.

First of all, from above; Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7;
Romans 9:16; Ephesians 2:1,5; Titus 3:3-5; & John 6:44
all look like pretty good definitions of Total Depravity.

Secondly, I don't know why it says this:

Van said:

all the lost are unable to seek God and trust in Christ, the Baptist distinctive of soul freedom.

Click to expand...

"...all the lost are unable to seek God and trust in Christ",

...is not the distinctive of soul freedom(?), even if they were Baptist.

Alan Gross said:

This is these are the 'doctrines' you presented.
SNIP
Actually, this post Baptist Incompatibility reflects the so-called 'baptist' doctrine of soul freedom:
SNIP
"SOUL FREEDOM needs to be incompatible with EVERY SYSTEM of THEOLOGY.

THEOLOGY MEANS "THE STUDY of GOD."

"SOUL FREEDOM" is the SOLE EXALTATION of HUMANISM.

(I am not a Reformed 'Baptist', but this malicious deception, "SOUL FREEDOM",
is anathema, so I thought I would comment.

Click to expand...

LOL, a repeat of the redefinition ploy of not addressing the actual position, but instead inventing a strawman to know down.
Lets try again:

"every person is spiritually competent to open the Bible and, led by the Spirit, interpret it for their life and faith."

Now what does the statement mean by the phrase "led by the Spirit?" Well certainly those born anew and indwelt with our "Helper" can be "led by our indwelt Holy Spirit" as we study God's word.

But the Bible, including the OT Law, is the word of God, and is the work product of the Spirit inspiring the human authors. Thus Galatians 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith" presents the lost being led by the Spirit as they read and meditate concerning their Bible.

This view reflects the Baptist doctrine of soul freedom, and is incompatible with Reformed Theology.

Again; Romans 9:16 "So then it is not of him that wills nor of him that runs but of God that shows mercy."

This is a good definition of Soul Freedom to both will to be saved, and do things to be saved, but whether or not the result is salvation depends completely on God alone and the human effort does not contribute to or merit the possible salvation.

Does Romans 9:16 teach the lost are able to will to be saved and do things to be saved? And the Answer is?? Yes

"The bone of contention is whether the lost spiritually dead are able to set their minds on any spiritual things such as spiritual milk." Is the contention the lost are able to set their minds on "any" spiritual thing? Nope. Spiritual milk yes, spiritual solid food (meat) nope.

But then to argue, "Certainly the idea that the mind cannot focus on things other than fleshly desires is unsupported speculation."

Saying "spiritually dead" "equals being separated from God due to being in an unholy sinful state" isn't enough? Yes it is!!!!

Paul spoke to as to men of flesh using spiritual milk. Therefore the lost are able to set their minds on spiritual milk!!!!

In summary, no verse or passage in scripture actually supports the false claim that all the lost are unable to seek God and trust in Christ, the Baptist distinctive of soul freedom.

Van said:

Again; Romans 9:16 "So then it is not of him that wills nor of him that runs but of God that shows mercy."

Total Depravity.

This is a good definition of Soul Freedom to both will to be saved, and do things to be saved, but whether or not the result is salvation depends completely on God alone and the human effort does not contribute to or merit the possible salvation.

Click to expand...

Right. And "Soul Freedom" is what? Paganism, without God or The Bible.

Van said:

Does Romans 9:16 teach the lost are able to will to be saved and do things to be saved? And the Answer is?? Yes

Click to expand...

No. The exact opposite. Every time.

Van said:

"The bone of contention is whether the lost spiritually dead are able to set their minds on any spiritual things such as spiritual milk." Is the contention the lost are able to set their minds on "any" spiritual thing? Nope. Spiritual milk yes, spiritual solid food (meat) nope.

Click to expand...

You have a hard time handling milk.

Ever hear of, "brethren"?

These men were not lost.

I Corinthians 3:1; "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 "I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 "For ye are yet carnal ( carnal behaving brethren, although saved): for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal ( carnal behaving brethren, although saved) , and walk as men?

4 "For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? (carnal behaving brethren, although saved)."

Van said:

But then to argue, "Certainly the idea that the mind cannot focus on things other than fleshly desires is unsupported speculation."

Click to expand...

The lost mind cannot focus on or "dicern" Spiritual things.

"But the natural man (the lost man) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him (the lost man): neither can he know them, (the lost man) because they are spiritually discerned".

And? The lost man's spirit is dead to God, as in dead-dead.

There are no "degrees" of dead.

Van said:

Saying "spiritually dead" "equals being separated from God due to being in an unholy sinful state" isn't enough? Yes it is!!!!

Click to expand...

No, saying "spiritually dead" equals being separated from God due to being in a (completely) unholy sinful state" isn't enough to prove that:
the lost man's spirit is NOT dead to God, as in dead-dead.

There are no "degrees" of dead.

"Being separated from God due to being in a (completely) unholy sinful state" is "spiritually dead."

Van said:

Paul spoke to as to men of flesh using spiritual milk. Therefore the lost are able to set their minds on spiritual milk!!!!

Click to expand...

Don't know why you changed this to give the allusion they were possibly lost; "Paul spoke to as to men of flesh."

You do know "brethren" are saved, right?

These carnal "brethren", being fed milk were not lost.

I Corinthians 3:1; "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, (carnal behaving brethren, although saved) even as unto babes in Christ (carnal brethren behaving as saved babes in Christ, although saved).

2 "I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able."

Van said:

In summary, no verse or passage in scripture actually supports the false claim that all the lost are unable to seek God and trust in Christ,

Click to expand...

You have authored a "Manifesto on Total Depravity", Van.

Everything you say convinces me more and more of Total Depravity, every day.

Van said:

the Baptist distinctive of soul freedom.

Click to expand...

The "claim that all the lost are unable to seek God and trust in Christ" is the genuine Baptist distinctive of Total Depravity, not the (counterfeit) baptist distinctive of "soul freedom".

Figure it out, if you can.

Once again we have a long and nonsensical post addressing strawmen. What are these folks afraid of? The Truth?

Do they address that the written Law leads people to Christ? Nope.

Do they address some lost people will to be saved? Nope

Folks, all they have are smoke screed posts.

Ever wonder why endless posts address doctrines I did not present?

Lets try again:

"every person is spiritually competent to open the Bible and, led by the Spirit, interpret it for their life and faith."

Now what does the statement mean by the phrase "led by the Spirit?" Well certainly those born anew and indwelt with our "Helper" can be "led by our indwelt Holy Spirit" as we study God's word.

But the Bible, including the OT Law, is the word of God, and is the work product of the Spirit inspiring the human authors. Thus Galatians 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith" presents the lost being led by the Spirit as they read and meditate concerning their Bible.

This view reflects the Baptist doctrine of soul freedom, and is incompatible with Reformed Theology.