Featured Is Everything Predestined?

Once again, the WCF and most of Calvinism says that God only predestines someone's damnation in that He allows them to accomplish what they want to do their whole lives and respects their free will. It is ordained and God claims responsibility ONLY in that it is true that if He had chosen to he could have made it work out differently. To judge why He might have done it that way is beyond our right to do and would be close to blasphemy. The exception to this would be scriptures that point out that at some point God may judicially harden someone and give them free reign to proceed into greater and greater wickedness.

 

Go for it.

God-honoring (True) to worship him, please.

Pass 'em on.

Preach the Gospel.

I put your soul under the Eternal Word of God and you don't like it?

I'm an Independent Missionary BAPTIST, (in capital letters, i.e., I have a large monitor, which make BAPTISTBOARD at the top of the page real tall, so you have to figure that would be me), which doesn't mean I'm better than anyone else*, at all, it just means,

"The Bible gives us a Home Court Advantage".

know that.

*what I am is against the BB Rules to post (and I would be being racist, somehow I think). Other than genuinely gross, or purifying, etc.

facts.

"Refusal to consider fallen man’s condition helps no one.

"However unpleasant and forbidding this subject, it is an integral part of "the counsel of God" which His ministers are not at liberty to withhold."

The Total Depravity of Man
by A. W. Pink

"No representations of sin are more common in the Scriptures than those taken from its defiling effects. Throughout it is portrayed as ugly and revolting, unclean and disgusting. It is pictured by leprosy, the most loathsome disease which can attack the human frame. It is likened to wounds, bruises and putrefying sores. It is compared to a cage of unclean birds.

"The inseparable connection of the beautiful and good and the ugly and sinful pervades the moral teaching of both Testaments. That connection is ethical and not aesthetic. To reverse the order would be to reduce righteousness to a matter of taste, and to regulate authority according to its appeal to our sentiments. As someone has said, the aesthetic sentiment is a reflection from the moral sphere, a transfer to our senses of those perceptions found in their purity only in the realm of the spiritual and divine. Sin is really and originally all that is ugly; nothing else is ugly except as a result of its connection with sin. The ugliness which it creates is its own blot. It has deranged the whole structure of the soul, and morally ulcerated man from head to foot.

"We are all as an unclean thing" (Isa. 64:6). Thus God’s Word describes us: foul and filthy. That pollution is deep and unmistakable, likened to crimson dye (Isa. 1:18), or to the blackness of the Ethiopian (Jer. 13:23), which cannot be washed away by the niter of positive thinking or the soap of reformation (Jer. 2:22).

"It is an indelible pollution, for it is "written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of ... [the] heart" (Jer. 17:1).

"The great deluge did not wash it from the earth, nor did the fire that came down upon Sodom burn it out. It is ineradicable. Even the fire of hell through eternity will not take away the stain of sin in the souls there. This pollution spreads, like leaven and leprosy. It is universal and has defiled all the faculties of the inner man so that there is "no soundness in it" (Isa. 1:6).

"Soul and body alike are contaminated, for we read of the "filthiness of the flesh and spirit" (II Cor. 7:1). It extends to the thoughts and imaginations, as well as to words and deeds. It is malignant and deadly, "the poison of asps" (Rom. 3:13).

"I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live" (Ezek. 16:6). The doubling of that expression shows the deadly nature of the pollution.

"Sin is as loathsome as it is criminal; it is like a foul stench in the nostrils of the Lord.

"Thus the day man corrupted himself, his Maker could no longer endure him, but drove him out of the garden (Gen. 3:24). The Scriptures liken man to foxes for their subtlety, to wild bulls for their intractableness, to briers and thorns for their hurtfulness, to pigs for their greediness and filthiness, to bears and lions for their cruelty and bloodthirstiness, to serpents for their hatefulness.

"However unpleasant and forbidding this subject, it is an integral part of "the counsel of God" which His ministers are not at liberty to withhold. They are not free to pick and choose their themes, still less to tone them down. Rather each one is told by his Master, "Speak unto them all that I commanded thee: be not dismayed at their faces" (Jer. 1:17).

"Asylums, prisons, and cemeteries are depressing sights, yet they are painful facts of human history.

"Refusal to consider fallen man’s condition helps no one. Until we are brought to realize this truth we shall never despair of self and look away to Another. This solemn side of the picture is indeed dark, yet it is the necessary background to redemption.

25 "And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26 "Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27 "For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God (that which hasn't already left the shore, with you on the beech, crying...)

Allow me......to HELP you out...

You might want to try to click the embedded URL posted.

But, I can't tell you what to believe.

I'm not afraid of The Bible.

And, again, click my name and chose "ignore" in the blue writing.

I'll draw you a picture if you need me to,

I'm there for ya.

Better yet, since you don't post a nickles worth of Bible information over six months, that is usually my criteria for placing someone on "ignore". Then, it's happiness galore on here for me.

Weeeeee.


...



con't

 

Ol' Sage advise: don't even try yo go there.

Continue to shun the Counsel of God.

They'd shake on you like Saul's armor on David."


A. W. Pink
The Total Depravity of Man


...
BOOK II.
OF THE ACTS AND WORKS OF GOD

Of the Internal Acts of God, and of his Decrees in general † Of the Special Decrees of God, particularly of Election † Of the Rejection of some Angels and some Men † Of the Union of the Elect to God † Of Adoption as an Immanent Act † Of the Everlasting Council † Of the Everlasting Covenant of Grace † Of the Part the Father took in the Covenant † Of the Part the Son of God took in the Covenant † Of Christ as the Covenant Head of the Elect † Of Christ the Surety of the Covenant † Of the Love of God † Of Christ the Testator of the Covenant † Of the Concern the Spirit has in the Covenant † Of the Properties of the Covenant † Of the Complacency and Delight the Divine Persons had in each other from everlasting

~~~~~~

BOOK III.
OF THE EXTERNAL WORKS OF GOD

Of Creation in General † Of the Creation of Angels † Of the Creation of Man † Of the Providence of God † Of the Confirmation of the Elect Angels, Of the Fall of the Non-elect Angels † Of the Honour and Happiness of Man in Innocence † Of the Law given to Adam, and Covenant with him † Of the Sin and Fall of our First Parents † Of the Nature, Aggravations, and sad Effects of the Sin of Man † Of the Imputation of Adam's Sin to all his Posterity † Of the Corruption of Human Nature † Of Actual Sins and Transgressions † Of the Punishment of Sin

~~~~~~

BOOK IV.
OF THE ACTS OF THE GRACE OF GOD TOWARDS AND UPON HIS ELECT IN TIME.

Of the Manifestation and Administration of the Covenant of Grace † Of the Covenant of Grace in the Patriarchal State † Of the Covenant of Grace under the Mosaic Dispensation † Of the Covenant of Grace in the Times of David and the Prophets † Of the Abrogation of the Old Covenant † Of the Law of God † Of the Gospel

~~~~~~

BOOK V.
OF THE GRACE OF CHRIST IN HIS STATES OF HUMILIATION AND EXALTATION, AND IN THE OFFICES EXERCISED BY HIM IN THEM.

Of the Incarnation of Christ † Of Christ's State of Humiliation † Of the Active Obedience of Christ † Of the Passive Obedience of Christ † Of the Burial of Christ † Of the Resurrection of Christ † Of the Ascension of Christ † Of the Session of Christ at the Right Hand of God † Of the Prophetic Office of Christ † Of the Priestly Office of Christ † Of the Intercession of Christ † Of Christ's Blessing his People as a Priest † Of the Kingly Office of Christ † Of the Spiritual Reign of Christ

~~~~~~

BOOK VI.
OF THE BLESSINGS OF GRACE, AND THE DOCTRINES OF IT.

Of Redemption by Christ † Of the Causes of Redemption † Of the Objects of Redemption † Of Scriptures favoring Universal Redemption † Of the Satisfaction of Christ † Of Propitiation, Atonement, and Reconciliation † Of Pardon of Sin † Of Justification † Of Adoption † Of the Liberty of the Sons of God † Of Regeneration † Of Effectual Calling † Of Conversion † Of Sanctification † Of the Perseverance of the Saints
...
Philip Mauro
The Hope of Israel [1929]
...
William Hendriksen
"More Than Conquerors"
...
Claude Duval Cole
DEFINITIONS OF DOCTRINE
Volume III
The New Testament Church)."

"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes." Matthew 11:25.

 

Correct.

Correct.

Correct. It's like asking God, "why did You crucify Jesus?"

Correct. "Wherefore God also gave them up" (Romans 1:24a)

 

Correct.

Correct.

Correct.

Correct.

Correct.

Correct.

Vanology.

 

So you openly deny scripture.
God has predestined that those that freely believe in His son will to be conformed to Christs image, be justified, be glorified, be adopted, and gain an inheritance. Now that should not be to hard for you to understand I hope.

Did you expect God to do those things for those that do not trust in His son? Why do you refuse to answer the question?

Your complete lack of understanding of scripture is evident by what you just posted. You wrote "If man does not, then God cannot." What scripture shows is that if man does not trust in His son then God will not save them. Why you continue deny this basic fact of Christian theology says a great deal about your lack of biblical knowledge.

As per usual you keep questioning my Christianity by calling me a humanist or saying I hold humanist views. This just shows you really have nothing to offer in defense of your philosophical views.

 

Wow, what a statement. You need to write a book.

So much for The Foreknowledge of The 'Omniscient' God(?)

 

This is from a nice quiet little chat about Predestination.

Predestination

I thought you might really enjoy it, immensely.

"2. Another cause of hesitation to receive this doctrine springs from a desire to avoid any belief which seems dishonoring to God.

"Taking a partial and superficial (and sometimes distorted) view of the subject, some consider it to be inconsistent with His goodness and impartiality to decree to save some and to leave others to perish in their sins.

"But let them take care while they quarrel with what God decrees that they do not quarrel with what He does. It is evident that all men are not saved, and that those that are, are saved by the operations of His grace.

"Now, if it is consistent with God’s honor to save some in time and to leave others to perish in their sins, it is consistent with it to decree to do so from eternity.

"Besides, supposing we grant that there were no divine decrees, we see not how the difficulty is obviated.

"God knew before He created them and from eternity who would reject the gospel and finally perish, and yet He gave them being notwithstanding—though He was under no necessity to do so.

"He might have created them with dispositions to do His will, or He might have not created them at all. Is He not as much responsible for the destruction of the wicked on the one supposition as on the other?

"As much on the Arminian principle as on the Calvinistic?

"God knows better than we do what is consistent with His character and how to preserve His honor—we shall be perfectly safe, therefore, in believing implicitly all that He reveals on the subject.

"And this is His testimony:

"The Lord of hosts hath sworn. (i.e. has immutably decreed)
saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass:

"and as I have purposed, so shall it stand.

"This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth,
and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

"For the Lord of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it?
and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?"

(Isa.14:24,26,27).

 

That sounds really nice until you realize that according to the WCF God has decreed all things that happen so the so called free will to reject God is really not free will at all. It has all been determined.

Dave you have just danced around the problem once again. Calvinistic determinism which the WCF & LCBF both support does not allow for man to have a free will.

CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE
Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass.... LBCF 1689
Whatever they write after this does not alter the reality that according to them God determines all things, nothing is excluded. Remember Dave you said the writers of these documents were not idiots so they knew exactly what they were saying. How they then can say He {God} according to what they just wrote is not responsible for all that happens is them just trying to have their cake and eat it to.

Do you not find it strange that the bible says man can actually respond to various types of information and can turn and trust in God. Our gracious God is actively working in and through creation, conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word to aid humanity in their conversion.

 

You know as well as I do what you left out of the quote. People on here, if they are not familiar with is can look it up but I'm not going to discuss your effort to mangle the WCF by cutting out sections because you don't like what they say. There is also a chapter 9 which is completely about free will, by the way.

I'm not asking that you become a Calvinist. I am asking that you be honest in that the explanations I am giving are standard according the the WCF or the London Baptist Confession of Faith and they are consistent with what most Calvinists believe.

 

The only difference in what you wrote from what Calvinists teach is that Calvinists put a higher value on the actual effectiveness of those efforts of God actively working than you do. In fact, they will go so far as to say you are not the decisive, sovereign factor but that God is. So of course the Bible says that. Did it ever occur to you that God did not have to go around striking down multiple people with a blinding light until he eventually found one that responded like Paul?

 

But the free gift of God is eternal life for all that believe. That is why Paul preached the gospel message
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
What you need to understand is that salvation is available to everyone that believes.
Believes is a
Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Present G5774
The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. The action is Progressive (Continuous)
Voice: Active G5784
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.

Well you did have two things right in your post, God gives the gift of salvation to whom He wills and He wills to give it to those that believe in His son. And this was His plan from before time just as we see in Ephesians 1:4, those that are in Christ through faith will be holy and blameless and will be adopted as sons. But you are wrong when you intimate that one was saved at the cross. Christ Jesus paid humanities sin debt at the cross and salvation is available to all, for those that trust in the risen Christ.
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

The only way that mankind is in control of their salvation is in whether they choose to trust in Christ Jesus or to reject Him. Only God can save and He has chosen to saved those that trust in His son.

Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

By God's Mercy.

BEHOLD!; a secondary source:

Predestination

"Position 3. This determinate plan existed from all eternity.

This follows from the infinite perfections of His nature— from His immutability. If He has a plan in time which He had not in eternity, then His mind has undergone a change. But, He says: I am the Lord—I change not (Mal. 3:6). He is the same yesterday, today, and forever, without variableness or shadow of turning—from His infinite knowledge.

If a plan exists in the Divine Mind, it is designed either to produce the occurrences in time or to meet them: either it is the cause of events or is caused by them. Upon either supposition, it existed from eternity.

Though it be granted that it was devised to meet the events that occur, in time, it must have existed from eternity; since those events are as fully comprehended in the divine knowledge from eternity as after their occurrence in time. Known unto God are all His works from the beginnings...

Let these premises be granted (and we see not how they can be denied) and Predestination comes in like a flood.

Now, God’s eternal decree, by which He makes all things in time fixed and sure, is nothing but His eternal plan, by which He governs Himself in His relations towards His creatures. And His works of providence and of grace are but the revealment of that eternal plan and, consequently, of His eternal purpose.

Is it true that the elements and all inanimate nature are controlled by Him? Then all their conditions and mutations are foreordained by Him before the beginning of time.

Is it true that He rules with as sovereign sway in the moral as in the physical world?—That the hearts of all men are in His hands and that He turns them as the rivers of water are turned?—

Does He send His Spirit, to a certain number and no more and convince them of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment? Call them effectually by His grace, regenerate, sanctify, and save them?

And does He do all this in accordance with a plan entertained from eternity?

Then it follows that they were predestined to this grace according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things alter the counsel of His own will.

Has moral evil entered into His system, and do wicked men sin against Him, he not paralyzing their faculties nor changing their hearts?

And does He leave some, as vessels of wrath, to hardness of heart and blindness of mind that they might be damned?

And does all this occur too in accordance with a plan entertained from eternity?

Then it follows that from all eternity He decreed for wise purposes to permit the entrance of moral evil into His system to permit men to use the powers He gave them in opposition to His authority; then, it follows that some were before of old (i.e. from eternity), ordained to condemnation (Jude 4). Finally, it follows that the world, in all its physical and moral details, is just as God designed it to be.

Objection 1. "But does not this make God the author of sin?"

Let us get a definite idea of this phrase. What do you mean by the author of sin?

Sin is the transgression of the law, and the author of sin is one who is the perpetrator of such transgression. God, in this sense, cannot be the author of sin; nor can the Calvinistic doctrine of Predestination be tortured into such a blasphemous testimony against Him.

"But does it not teach that evil entered into His system in accordance with His eternal purpose and that He decreed all the acts of transgression that wicked men are guilty of; does it not, therefore, make Him the approver of sin?"

This question is a pertinent one, and we will meet it with all fairness. Predestination does assert that all the wicked acts of wicked men were foreordained before the beginning of time;

but yet it as unequivocally asserts that God does not approve of them;

since it teaches that He before of old ordained them to condemnation because of those very sins.

"But how can God foreordain that of which He does not approve?"

I will answer your question by propounding another: How can God, when He possesses infinite power, permit that of which He does not approve?

When you have answered my question, you will have furnished an answer to your own.

Now that moral evil does exist—that wicked men do sin against God, are facts that are indisputable. This happens either by God’s permission or against His consent.

Now let my Arminian interrogator take either supposition that he pleases.

If he says that wicked men sinning against God happen against God’s consent—in spite of God’s will, then he robs Him of His omnipotence;

if he says that wicked men sinning against God happen by God’s permission, then he too is imperatively called upon to defend his system from the odious consequences which he ascribes to mine.

The only difference between us is that
he (the Arminian) says God permits sin,
(& wicked men sinning against God)

and we (the Calvinists) say that He decreed from eternity to permit it (wicked men sinning against God).

"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"
Acts 2:23.

Check this out AustinC: I want you to find out for me, how do wicked men sinning, "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God", not cause God to be the author of sin?

 

The question of the day that I asked AustinC:

"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"
Acts 2:23.

How do Predestined wicked men sin,
"by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God",
not cause God to be the author of sin?

Because, it didn't, with the crucifixion of Jesus.

And, it can't with the sinning of wicked me, otherwise.

If we get that right, we're got it.

 

LOL

I have shown everyone here your error. Your sad attempt to assert such a foolish claim against me is pathetic on your part. Just own your humanism and walk away.

 

"step aside"?

Cool.

 

You do understand that God is omniscient. God foreknows all that will happen but He does not cause all that will happen. Under the Calvinist divine determinism view God has to cause all things {WCF & LBCF} or else He is not sovereign. But if one holds to that idea then God has to cause all sin and evil, which we know is not biblical.

We see all through the bible that God expects man to make real choices
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Those verses indicate real ability to choose and the result of those choices. Under Calvinism's divine determinism man can not make real choices because as you said God predestines the choices that they make. A will that is predestined by God to reject salvation does not have the free will. For a person to have a free will they have to have the ability to choose otherwise than they had. That does not mean that they would have but the ability to do so has to be there and it is not under Calvinism.

 

And there we come back to the Calvinist idea that God has to pick out certain ones, in other words He makes arbitrary choices without regard to faith in His son. God holds man responsible for their choices, if they reject His son they are condemned but if they do not have the ability to choose to trust in His son how is one responsible for a choice they could not make.

Dave now you are just sounding frustrated. Why would I think God had to blind multiple people until He found Paul. What you fail to appreciate is that Paul could have rejected the call of Christ.

Dave you keep circling back to your Calvinist divine determinism but you still will not think it through to it's logical conclusion.

 

Why do you continue to deny scripture? What is the error, that I believe what the bible says rather than your Calvinist philosophy? I will gladly own that error.

The bible is the standard it is to be our authority. You have denied multiple scriptures and just continue to hold to your errant Calvinist view.