Featured The Truth About the Biblical Act of Predestination.

I read a few comments in another thread on the subject of predestination and I could not help but notice that much disagreement existed between different denominations of Baptists. ( honesty demands that noone but Baptists should be commenting).
I think it will be helpful to begin a new thread where I can encourage a look at this subject within the context of where this action of God the Father takes place and where in the scrtiptures God deals with it. Make no mistake about it, it is an act of God the Father and it does have a historical context which I will point out. It also has an ethical context and it must be understood in the context of those actions of God and the theological terms he uses in the scriptures.
It would be nice if serious students of the word would participate instead of these hyper Reformed Baptists and hyper Baptist Briders who do not believe a single word of God in any sensible manner.

My op will springboard off of the following offering on the other thread. I honestly think that my comments on the subject will exalt God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, and will lift up Jesus Christ as our way into the presence of God.

I will begin by saying the statement of Mr kyredneck is not a correct statement and the Bible verses he has submitted as proof of his statement in no way proves it. It proves the exact opposite.

Now, let me say I could have chosen other comments to begin this thread and by choosing this author, I am not accusing him of deliberately trying to mislead any one, I am just saying he is in error and does not have light on the subject from the Lord. I do think there are some who has no interest in the truth and does try to mislead, but Mr kyredneck is not one of them.

All I will say now is that the Jewish believers were first to be conformed to the image of Christ through a new birth. Jesus Christ, who from his birth was the image of God, soul, body, and the Holy Spirit indwelling his body, making him a trinitarian entity, and like God. No man living on the earth when Jesus came could make that claim. Men who believed God before Jesus Christ came were servants of God, and at best were "friends" of God, but no man was a son of God. It takes a new birth for that and that can only be accomplished when Jesus finishes his work of redemption and rises from the dead.

So, this information in Romans 8 can be easily seen to be written in a Jewish context. It was written in 58 AD. God dealt with the idea of foreknowledge in this context. We can talk about that later.

In Ephesians 1, the other epistle where predestination is named, is in the context of gentiles and was written in 60 AD. Foreknowledge is not in this context for a good reason. All the usages of the word is in a Jewish context. That means something and is important.

Ac 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I would like to discuss this a while but I will remind everyone that an empasis of the scriptures from the time of the fall of Adam has been on the new birth and one can see it previewed in the workings of God all through the scriptures if one is looking for it. The bottom line is that if a man is reconciled to God, whom he has offended by his sin, it will be through faith in what God has told us Jesus Christ has done for us by pouring out his eternal Spirit who is the gift of God to indwell us and to be our life.

He, the indwelling Holy Spirit, also teaches us the mind of God through the words of God and without him a man cannot know it. May the Lord be glorified by our words.

 

Calling names and trying to discredit me will in no way improve your ability of comprehension and logic, none of which you and others like you demonstrate in these forums.

The verses above have context. One must begin at the beginning of Paul's discorse in chapter 7, verse 1 and understand history, since he is using historical actions of God to make his points about the people of God, Israel, in the present dealings with them as a people of covenant promises.

I will just say that you began by making comments about the act of God the Father on the subject of predestination that were false, and I responded in this manner.

" the statement of Mr kyredneck is not a correct statement and the Bible verses he has submitted as proof of his statement in no way proves it. It proves the exact opposite."

Here is the comments I will be dealing with;

kyredneck said: ↑
1) 'Predestin' is found only four times in the scriptures and is ALWAYS in reference to God choosing individuals for a people for His own possession,NOT to events.

You then quoted from two epistles as proof of your conclusion. Following are those two quotes.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1

Here is a word that is not in the text anywhere; "CHOOSING". Not only is it not in the text, it is nowhere in the epistle to the Romans. Here are some other words that are not in the epistle to the Romans;
1) Choice
2) Choose

Why are these words not in the epistle to the Romans, particularly as they pertain to this section of the epistle that explains the actions of God toward his elect nation and people in this time frame? It is 58 AD. All the history from Acts 1 through Acts 18 is past tense at the time of the writing of this epistle. The relationship between God and Israel and between Israel and the nations are radically and dramatically different now than they were before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. What does this mean to Israel concerning God's immutable covenants to this elect people and relating to their prophesied special status as the head of the nations, their land grant of all of Palestine, and a King who will sit on the throne of David and rule in righteousness over all the earth forever?

This must be explained somewhere and Romans 7:1 through Rom 11:12 is the explanation as it concerns this people. All the names and events that are called up by the apostle are from the OT and are things the Jews would be very familiar with, having studied them in their temples and synagogues and having learned them through their priests and Levites for 1500 years at this time.

These chapters and verses are in a Jewish context. This does not mean that some of these truths about Jews in this age does not likewise pertain to gentiles, but those that do apply to gentiles will be explained to them in a context that does apply to gentiles, like the epistle to the Ephesians and the epistle to the Colossians.

So, for this post, the act of God of predestination is not in the context of God choosing. It is something else. The text says plainly what it is. It is to be predestinated to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

The only singular individual in the text is Jesus Christ. What is his image? Are we told? Can we know? The answer is "Yes."

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his (God's glory), and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Predestination is always in the context of God's glory, something that no person, saved or lost, can claim for himself now. Jesus Christ was not glorified while he was here on earth. He was glorified at his resurrection from the dead when his body was changed from mortal to immortal and the life of it was not blood, but the Spirit of God. The promise to us who are saved is to have a body like his glorious body through which we are able to receive the heavenly inheritance. His was the first body to be so glorified and God in his word calls this a birth, and he says that Jesus Chriust was the firstborn from the dead. Now, you can see how and why he is the firstborn among many brethren.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again (born again) unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The body of Jesus Christ was the first body to be so glorified and God in his word calls this a birth, and he says that Jesus Christ was the firstborn from the dead. Now, you can see how and why he is the firstborn among many brethren.

So, what we can observe in this post is that Jesus Christ is the only singular person in the text and all the pronouns are plural. There is no choosing in the text but there are believers of the sons of Abraham who have become the sons of God by receiving the earnest of the inheritance, which is the same as a promissory note for the full amount when they are glorified with the new body and taken to heaven where the inheritance is. The earnest is the Spirit of God, who is the life of God, indwelling the mortal body of the believer. Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ro 8:15 For ye (plural) have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Ro 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

I am telling you these things because they are true and your religious system is leading you from the truth. May the Lord Jesus be glorified by this post and may God the Father be honored.

I have much more to say on this subject as I have the time. These are glorious truths.

 

I guess everyone must have labels. I am not offended but I am a Bible believer, which makes me a dispensationalist. That is a Bible word, BTW. Some of your definitions of your faith are not in the scriptures and are not even implied. I will give you a for instance;

Are you saying that you are not a Dispensationalist and that you do not believe that 'Jews are God's chosen people'?

1Sa 2:29 Wherefore kick ye at my sacrifice and at mine offering, which I have commanded in my habitation; and honourest thy sons above me, to make yourselves fat with the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel my people?

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Isa 46:13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Now, where is your name in the scriptures to affirm your individual election?

 

Predestination is a destination that is determined beforehand. The destination is heaven, where the promised inheritance is (heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ), and it is associated with glorification, not salvation from the penalty of sin. It is a NT doctrine of the body of Christ that he is forming now. This doctrine is not about the elect nation and people of God called Israel, because Matt 1-12 has made it clear that the nation refused to receive Jesus Christ as their Messiah and saviour and King. Only a few individuals came to Christ and they are called in Rom 11 as the remnant according to the election of grace. The elect nation were and remain to this day judicially blinded while he is building the house (family) of Jesus Christ via the new birth. According to the logic of God, beginning in Rom 11:13, he has included the gentiles because of the unbelief of his people Israel.

According to Verse 26 of the same chapter 11, the church, or body of Christ, his house will be complete when the gentiles will no longer believe and at that time God will once again deal with Israel and save that people, every one who remains after his purging with the baptismal fires of the great tribulation, which has been prophesied for hundreds of years.

Mt 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

God will not establish his earthly kingdom under the principle of righteousness until every subject of his kingdom is saved by their own choice. The tribulational fires will destroyed all his enemies and none will be left but the saved.

 

Predestination is not a Reformed doctrine. It is a Bible doctrine. Bible doctrines have context. Reformed doctrines do not. My comments were in a Bible context. We need to know how to process what God has told us. It has nothing to do with Calvinism except when Calvinists pervert it and use it to exalt themselves. I cannot help it if their response is adversarial, or if putting my comments under the heading of sound Baptist doctrine causes Calvinistic responses.

If you are incensed by that, then I do not know how to advise you going forward.

 

Point 1) above;

I do not think that is true. Follow the logic in these verses below;

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons.

Now, if we are children of God, why must we be adopted to receive the inheritance" It is because of the new body that we will receive at our glorification. It is not the old body we possessed when we were first saved revamped. It is a totally new body. It is a glorified body. Collectively, it is the body of Christ, who is it's head. He is in heaven now and because we are vitally connected to him, it can be said that we sit together in heavenly places in Christ.

Point 2) above.

You did not say where in Romans that he said he knew us before the foundation of the world.

The foundation of the world phrase does not appear in the epistle to the Romans. The foreknowledge that Paul is dealing with in Romans is in the context of the Israelite people with whom God had a covenant relationship with and to whom he gave many promises. So, the foreknowledge means knowing before "this present time." It does not stretch that knowledge out before the foundation of the world. We will have an opportunity to discuss this more later.

Point 3) above.

It is not true that God knew us in a personal way before the foundation of the world. He does not say he does. He foreknew his covenant nation but as we saw above, he did not know them before the foundation of the world, but before this present time. He did not foreknow the gentiles at all and he does not say he did. What he does says about time past, which is before he opened the door of faith to gentiles, is posted below.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Following in verse 14 is the institution of the dispensation of the grace of God in time. It is the taking away and changing the rules in order to accept someone else into the family.That is the meaning of dispensation.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Now the "both" here are Jewish believers and gentile believers. Don't this make sense fellows? Everything that was in place that would hinder this union has been taken away so this new man, or this new body can be formed. Think about the wisdom of God in this.


16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Point 4) above

Do not interpret the scriptures in the context of some ones theological system that will not allow you to exercise your own mind and reason.