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@KenH

You are arguing an "age of accountability'. You seem to interpret Paul as saying we are born spiritually alive and remain so until we become aware of the Law which reveals our sin.

Romans 7:7–11 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet. But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

What do you do with Romans 2:12?

Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.

 

Born flesh was my word. Scripture describes Adam as being made a living soul.

My point is that the idea Adam's nature changed is not in the Bible. His eyes were opened to know good and evil like God. Through his sin death entered the world and Adam would die, becoming dust.

We rely far too much on Catholic doctrine and tradition in our theology. What we needed was a return to Scripture, not a reform of RCC doctrine.

 

I do not consider Catholic doctrine.
Now on the other hand there are things that RC and Baptists do agree!

So - Was Adam created without sin?
Was he created with a sin nature

 

We do not consider Catholic doctrine. That isn't what I mean. What I am saying is RCC doctrine has made it into our churches via the efforts of the Reformers. Reformed doctrine is very Catholic, and their influences are present in our churches.

Yes, Adam was created without having sinned. He was tempted by the desires of the flesh (the fruit was pleasing to the eye, would bring knowledge, would make them like God, and....of course...would silence his nagging wife ). We sin in the same way...perhaps without the nagging wife.

 

I agree with Hawker.

The Law acquainted Paul with his own heart. Paul was speaking of God bringing him to apprehension of the law, and to the right knowledge of himself, as a sinner before God. This was not Paul spiritually dying but instead Paul realizing that he was spiritually dead.

I think we both know the idea that Adam died spiritually is foreign to the Bible (actually, it contradicts what is stated in God's Word about being alive spiritually).

 

Perhaps I have. I like (and agree with) your Hawker's quite. Paul was using "death" in the sense "that the law was never brought home to his conscience by the powerful hand of God the Holy Ghost until his memorable conversion. Then the Lord, for the first time, opened his eyes to the right apprehension of the law, and to the right knowledge of himself, as a sinner before God: and the consequence was, that all those high towering thoughts which he had conceived of his own goodness, fell to the ground, and he himself fell with them a self-condemned sinner before God."

Paul realized he was dead (spiritually speaking).

 

You are changing the argument. I am not denying that we are born sinners by nature.

I am saying that the idea Adam died spiritually is unbiblical.

I think that's why people here keep spinning my argument into something I never claimed - they know the idea of dying spiritually is unbiblical but it is a tradition other doctrines are built, so they shift the argument.

You did it here by posting as if I reject we are born "spiritually dead" and @tyndale1946 did it when he claimed I rejected total depravity and divine sovereignty.

So to clarify for you and Brother Tyndale -

I believe in total depravity.
I believe we are born flesh, not spirit.
I believe we were not born with "spiritually life"

That which is born flesh is flesh, that which is born flesh f the Spirit is spirit.

 

Why Not?
Does Scripture prohibit it?

What is the difference
and what if the church does not have a "fellowship hall"
I did attend one church - that if we had a fellowship dinner it was in the church auditorium. Does that mean we were sinning?

 

Sure, I can explain. The Bible does not offer the possibility of dying spiritually, therefore the idea that a man died spiritually is unbiblical.

Adam was made a living soul. Adam was flesh. We are born a living soul and flesh. Christ was made a "Life giving Spirit". We must be reborn spiritually in the image of Christ.

 

Dead means dead in some way, shape or form - I agree.

I suggest that "dead" in that context means "spiritually dead".

A good example of this is when Jesus says "let the dead burry their dead". The idea is to let the spiritually dead bury their physically dead (while the spiritually alive...the Disciple...gets on with following Christ).

 

I don't see how that is an issue. The passage in English does not say Adam will die on that day. More importantly, the verse in Hebrew is far from saying Adam will die on that day.

I don't see how you determine Adam died spiritually given what the Bible says it is to be alive spiritually.

Also, death is described by God when actually giving Adam the consequences of his sin as returning to dust. How is this not physical?