1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Rewriting Scripture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Mar 29, 2023.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You do not know that the Greek routinely omits words (ellipsis). Yes you know that but present falsehood to avoid facing the fact James 2:5 does not say we were chosen to be rich in faith, but rather were rich in faith when chosen.

    For those that think the poster claiming to know some fault I made, read this:
    Ellipsis (linguistics) - Wikipedia
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,848
    Likes Received:
    1,365
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Oh, trade secret for only those who have studied Greek.
     
  3. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    3,357
    Likes Received:
    243
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not at all. I just doubt your abilities to read the Greek apart from the English translation, which supplies the verb when, at times, Greek doesn't.

    The Archangel
     
  4. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    3,357
    Likes Received:
    243
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ellipsis and the implied verb are not the same thing. [snip]

    The Archangel
     
    #24 The Archangel, Apr 1, 2023
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 1, 2023
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Utter nonsense. You just posted the verb to be was omitted. On and on folks, the context of James 2:5 precludes the ellipsis being the verb "to be." Note that the folks loving God in the present, not future, were already heirs of the promised (past tense) kingdom!
     
    #25 Van, Apr 1, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2023
  6. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    3,357
    Likes Received:
    243
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I see you dodged the point of my post. Of course, you had to in order to be comfortable (snip)

    The Archangel
     
    #26 The Archangel, Apr 1, 2023
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 1, 2023
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,848
    Likes Received:
    1,365
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Doubt all you want. I have no plans to become any kind of expert in Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic. Let alone English.

    The Greek verb "to be" is not used in John 4:24, ". . . God [is] a Spirit: and . . . ."
    . . . πνευμα θεος και . . . .
     
  8. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    3,357
    Likes Received:
    243
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ok... so?

    Also, in the translation "a Spirit," "a" is not in the text either. It is supplied by the translator (which isn't the best practice with the anarthrous noun "Spirit").

    The Archangel
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No. The point is Austin has been bringing up qualifications as if it is relevant to the discussion.

    I don't necessarily agree with Van (I haven't even read his argument). But if somebody is going to dismiss another's post because of that member's qualifications then he need to state his own.

    As it is, it's just an insult.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    13,417
    Likes Received:
    1,769
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Please write your translation up as a paper to present to a peer reviewed journal and allow Greek scholars to evaluate it.

    Who knows, Van, maybe the Biblical Greek scholars will agree and all your dreams of changing scripture to fit your views will come true.

    Until then, I will continue to point out you have not presented a single Greek scholar that agrees with your continuous assault on God’s Word.

    BTW, the only thing you got right in this thread is the title “Rewriting Scripture”, which is exactly what you are attempting to do.

    peace to you
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,848
    Likes Received:
    1,365
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You're acting like what is sometimes been called a smart aleck.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet another gratuitous insult, comfortable in your ignorance, but completely dodging:

    You just posted the verb to be was omitted. On and on folks, the context of James 2:5 precludes the ellipsis being the verb "to be." Note that the folks loving God in the present, not future, were already heirs of the promised (past tense) kingdom!
     
    #32 Van, Apr 1, 2023
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 1, 2023
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How many times are you going to be allowed to attack me with generalizations (snip), rather than address the factual examples I provided of rewriting scripture? And of course I cited Dr. Dan Wallace for the placement of the phrase "from the foundation of the world" in Revelation 13:8, thus your claim I have not cited a single Greek scholar is yet another material false statement. See post #12
     
    #33 Van, Apr 1, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2023
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    2 Thessalonians 2:13 reads (NASB):
    But we should always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

    The Greek word translated "for" is the preposition "eis" which means when used locatively, "into" and when used after verbs of appointing or choosing, or doing, means "for the purpose of" the verb. In the above verse, God "has chosen you" for the purpose of "salvation."

    The next phrase describes how and why God made His choice, through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

    Thus the plain reading of the text describes our conditional election for salvation.

    However, there is a branch of Christianity that believes we were chosen unconditionally individually and so this verse does not fit with their mistaken doctrine. But rather than submit to God's word, instead they rewrite the text to read instead of "for salvation" they mistranslate the verse to read "to be saved."

    What does this corruption accomplish? Rather than saying we were conditionally chosen, it now says we were chosen to be saved, and then the method of our being saved is said to be through sanctification by the Spirit and [instilling] faith in the truth.

    Which translations are the chief offenders of this despicable violence upon God's holy word? Of course the usual suspects (NIV, NLT and ESV) but also including RSV. It must be noted that the NRSV fixed this error.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1 Corinthians 2:14 (NASB)
    But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    The Greek word translated "the things" is the Greek article "ta" and identifies something specific concerning the Spirit of God. A literal translation would read "does not accept the [blank] of the Spirit of God. Most translations (as does the NASB) fill in the blank with the ambiguous "things" but this leads some to interpret the verse as saying "does not accept all the things" of the Spirit of God.

    However, some translations go past presenting an accurate if vague translation to one that is agenda driven.

    Here is an example of malfeasance:
    1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)
    The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

    Note those words in "red" were added which suggests anything coming from God's Spirit will not be accepted.

    Next we have yet another example of malfeasance:
    1 Corinthians 2:14 (NLT)
    But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.

    Note those words in "red" were added which suggests "truths" from God's spirit will not be accepted by those not indwelt.

    What is the actual contextual scope of "the blank" of the Spirit of God? Spiritual solid food, meat! See 1 Corinthians 3:1. Paul speaks to new Christians "as to men of flesh" (thus not indwelt) using spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel.

    So what do these agenda driven corruptions accomplish? They suggest those not indwelt are unable to understand the gospel! However, when contextually translated "...do not accept the solid food of the Spirit of God...," the spiritual milk of the gospel could be accepted
     
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    13,417
    Likes Received:
    1,769
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It is not an insult to ask someone for linguists qualifications when they continuously starts threads that demand we change what the Biblical scholars have understood about the text for centuries otherwise we believe “false doctrine”.

    peace to you
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  17. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    38,981
    Likes Received:
    2,616
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I just snipped some posts -
    Lets NOT be calling other posters "ignorant"!
    What you see see as a "Fact" others see as an "interpretation"
    and this goes for other insults as well.

    Lets keep these things in mind
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1) So if scholars from the past did not accurately translate the original text, we must accept it because not everyone corrected it? Give me a break! The NASB correctly has "for salvation" rather than "to be saved" and btw, "to be saved" is a recent rewrite and has not been around for centuries.

    2) Has the NIV, ESV or NLT been around for centuries? Nope, so there rewrites do not reflect what Bible scholars have understood for centuries.

    All the examples of rewriting the text are rather recent, and many scholarly translations changed the rewrite back to the original, or put the addition in italics so the addition could be excluded from a careful study.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  19. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    13,417
    Likes Received:
    1,769
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The challenge @Van…. Present a paper for peer review by Biblical Scholars to a professional journal.

    Then let all of us know how it goes

    peace to you
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,745
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Faith:
    Baptist
    LOL, all the examples can be verified using English translations such as those I included in my posts.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...