Featured Bible Study

Well we're all waiting with baited breath for @Van to tell us why it is clear to him that the ESV translation of Rev. 13:8 is 'agenda driven' and why saying that without explanation is not 'brushing off the experts.'

If you are guilty of that, surely you will want to share the results of your investigation, searching out and thorough inquiry?

 

@AustinC,
If I have counted correctly, 14 out of a total of 32 Bible versions say it is the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world. That means that 18 versions say it is the names that were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.
Hardly a conclusive number one way or the other. Yet @Van says that the 'vast majority of translators' agree with him.

As they used to say in Rowan & Martin's 'Laugh in' programme back in the 1960s, "Vairy interesting ................ but stupid!"

 

Let's just say that Van's 'investigations' are not exactly a plumb line of the truth.

 

Please provide documentation of these vast majority of translators.

 

So why do you dilute it and adulterate it by demanding that your translation is great, but the translations you hate have an "agenda?"

Van, at some point you have to point your finger at yourself and admit you are wrong.

 

Thank you for acknowledging your posts are not based on the knowledge of Biblical Greek.

You seem very upset. I have no malice toward you, Van.

I will leave you to it. Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

 

So you believe that the ESV translation of Revelation 13:8 is correct?? '...And all who dwell on the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.' So why do you regard said translation as 'agenda driven'?

The NKJV takes the other side of the argument. 'All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.'

Maybe you need to make your mind up. Or is it because you have suddenly discovered Revelation 17:8 that you have changed your mind?

 

Your post #4 is simply a rant. It contains no information about your understanding of Revelation 13:8 whatsoever. I don't have a NET footnote, whatever that may be.

The important point about Revelation 13:8 is whether it is the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world, or whether it is the names in the Book of Life that have been written in it from the Foundation of the world (I.e. from the beginning. Genesis 1:1). The NKJV translation is helpful because it preserves the word order of the Greek more closely.
'All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.'
As it is written there, it appears to support the meaning of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. However, it is important to know that there is no punctuation in 1st Century koine Greek, nor for a long time afterwards. If we add a comma to the sentence, we change its meaning.
'All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the book of life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world.' Now the reading supports the idea of the Lamb's book of life having been written from the foundation of the world.
So which one is right? 1 Peter 1:20 says that God chose Christ for the task of redeeming His people 'before the foundation of the world' and it might be objected that the phrase 'from the foundation of the world' is too far removed from the verb 'written' to refer to the book of life. If that was all the argument, then we would have to say that it is the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world. But as you say, there is a parallel passage in Revelation 17:8. 'And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.' The Lamb is not mentioned here so the meaning is clear.

Now, I expect you want to read these verses as if names are being added to the book of life at various times from the foundation of the world. Not so! The verb 'written,' both in Rev 13:8 and 17:8 is gegraptai, the Perfect Passive of grapho, 'to write.' The Perfect Tense denotes a completed action. The names have been written, once and for all, in the book of life, since the foundation of the world. This is a wonderful comfort to the saints on earth who are experiencing persecutions or the temptations of Satan. Their names are recorded eternally in that book of life, and the Lamb who was slain on their behalf has purchased them to live with Him eternally (Revelation 5:9).

Concerning the 'agenda-driven' E.S.V., it really makes no difference whether the names are in the book 'before' or 'from' the foundation of the world. They have been there since time began. I expect the ESV translators chose 'before' to correspond with 1 Peter 1:20; Ephesians 1:4 and Titus 1:2.

 

This sounds like a good foundation to start a study.

I want to make an observation and I hope you don’t take offense.

The lexicons are dictionaries. They give you the range of possible meanings of words. Like all words, the context determines meaning.

What I have noticed is that you look at the range of meanings of words in the lexicon. You then claim the word “could be translated” as “such in such”.

The point I have tried to make to you is that just because a word has a possible meaning doesn’t mean you can apply that meaning to any passage.

The way in which you attempt to apply meaning to words and phrases is contrary to the context, which makes the translation false.

peace to you

 

Do you have oñe good case example?

 

Ok, in Philippians 1:6 you have the Greek word “ev” (in). “He who began a good work in you will complete it…..”

The Greek word “ev” means “in” or “among”. Since the Greek word for “you” is plural, the word “ev” should be translated “among”, instead of “in”.

That makes the translation, “He who began a good work among you will complete it….”

So, instead of the commonly believe verse supporting sanctification, you have a verse supporting perseverance in the midst of persecution.

And…. since one of the major themes of Philippians is perseverance in the midst of persecution, that translation is consistent with the context.

BTW, I didn’t come with that in my own. My Greek prof in seminary (an expert) pointed that out to the class.

peace to you

 

". . . Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: . . ."
". . . Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work .among you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: . . ."
Sanctification begins prior to our regeneration. So either way "in" or "among" preservation is meant. So I am not understanding your point.