What Exactly Does "Have Fellowship With Devils" Mean?

Scripture More Accurately said:

No amount of agitated commenting is going to change what the texts say.

Saying that we fight against demonic opposition does not prove that every instance of idolatry involving humans offering sacrifices on altars to idols was, has been, and continues to be always and only directly the result of their heeding demonic teaching.

You have made a claim that has to be proven. You have failed to do so at this point.

Click to expand...

More denial of the obvious. Now he is simply addressing me and not the topic, go figure.
Did anyone say "every instance of idolatry?" So more obfuscation, more running from truth.
Personal incredulity is a fallacious argument.

Folks read Ephesians 2:2 or 6:12 concerning the spiritual origins of disinformation.

I think the context of 1 Corinthians 10:19-20 is that pagan beliefs and sacrifices, although fictions, are put into the minds of people by spiritual demonic beings, and so to be participants in these activities means (1) having spiritual commonality of purpose, mindset, etc. with demons, and (2) to be directly or indirectly fellowshiping with demonic powers.

Did Paul teach that other deities were fictions? See 1 Corinthians 8:10

Van said:

Folks read Ephesians 2:2 or 6:12 concerning the spiritual origins of disinformation.

Click to expand...

The Bible says that the devil deceived Eve, but he did not deceive Adam (1 Tim. 2:14). Neither the devil's deception nor his disinformation, therefore, was the source or cause of Adam's sinning against God.

Neither Eph. 2:2 nor Eph. 6:12 teaches or establishes in any way that all "disinformation" has demonic activity or teaching as its "spiritual origins."

Neither Eph. 2:2 nor Eph. 6:12, therefore, establishes in any way that having fellowship with demons through the offering of sacrifices to an idol necessarily is the result of demonic activity or teaching in the minds of people.

This position is not supported by Scripture:

I think the context of 1 Corinthians 10:19-20 is that pagan beliefs and sacrifices, although fictions, are put into the minds of people by spiritual demonic beings, and so to be participants in these activities means (1) having spiritual commonality of purpose, mindset, etc. with demons, and (2) to be directly or indirectly fellowshiping with demonic powers.

Click to expand...

Scripture More Accurately said:

...
Because multitudes of Gentiles who offer sacrifices to idols do not in actuality have any thought or intention in their minds that they want to or even would be sacrificing to demons, the interpretation that having fellowship with demons means having spiritual commonality of purpose, mindset, etc. with demons is untenable and is not what the passage is teaching.

Click to expand...

That states an assumption with no proof, or even explanation. One would have to demonstrate (pun intended) that the demons Paul refers to cannot go by names the Gentiles use for them, that is, for their false gods to whom they are sacrificing.

Scripture More Accurately said:

Strictly speaking, the same word is not used in verses 18 and 20 that is used in verse 16:

1 Corinthians 10:14 Διόπερ, ἀγαπητοί μου, φεύγετε ἀπὸ τῆς εἰδωλολατρείας. 15 ὡς φρονίμοις λέγω, κρίνατε ὑμεῖς ὅ φημι. 16 τὸ ποτήριον τῆς εὐλογίας ὃ εὐλογοῦμεν, οὐχὶ κοινωνία τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐστί; τὸν ἄρτον ὃν κλῶμεν, οὐχὶ κοινωνία τοῦ σώματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐστίν;

17 ὅτι εἷς ἄρτος, ἓν σῶμα, οἱ πολλοί ἐσμεν· οἱ γὰρ πάντες ἐκ τοῦ ἑνὸς ἄρτου μετέχομεν.

18 βλέπετε τὸν Ἰσραὴλ κατὰ σάρκα· οὐχὶ οἱ ἐσθίοντες τὰς θυσίας κοινωνοὶ τοῦ θυσιαστηρίου εἰσί; 19 τί οὖν φημι; ὅτι εἴδωλόν τί ἐστιν; ἢ ὅτι εἰδωλόθυτόν τί ἐστιν; 20 ἀλλ᾽ ὅτι ἃ θύει τὰ ἔθνη, δαιμονίοις θύει, καὶ οὐ Θεῷ· οὐ θέλω δὲ ὑμᾶς κοινωνοὺς τῶν δαιμονίων γίνεσθαι. (1 Cor. 10:14 SCR)

They are related Greek nouns, but they are not the same noun. More importantly, in 10:18 and 10:20, the one noun is used in a different way in conjunction with linking verbs than how the other noun is used with linking verbs in 10:18.

Click to expand...

You are quite right, of course. κοινωνία is the word that means 'sharing,' 'participation' etc. κοινωνοὶ and κοινωνοὺς are the nominative and accusative plural of κοινωνος, which can mean a 'partner,' but in context seems to mean simply 'those who share, partake' etc.
The NKJV translates κοινωνοὶ in v.18 as 'partakers,' and κοινωνοὺς in v.20 as effectively 'fellowshippers.' Verse 20b might be translated, 'I do not wish you to become fellowshippers with [the] demons.'
I don't think any of that leads me to amend my understanding already expressed, but I'm interested now to see your exposition of the verse. Over to you.

Martin Marprelate said:

You are quite right, of course. κοινωνία is the word that means 'sharing,' 'participation' etc. κοινωνοὶ and κοινωνοὺς are the nominative and accusative plural of κοινωνος, which can mean a 'partner,' but in context seems to mean simply 'those who share, partake' etc.
The NKJV translates κοινωνοὶ in v.18 as 'partakers,' and κοινωνοὺς in v.20 as effectively 'fellowshippers.' Verse 20b might be translated, 'I do not wish you to become fellowshippers with [the] demons.'
I don't think any of that leads me to amend my understanding already expressed, but I'm interested now to see your exposition of the verse. Over to you.

Click to expand...

I started the thread because I am not certain of what the proper understanding of the verse is. The thread is intended to be an opportunity for mutual advancement of understanding as various interpretational possibilities are examined, critiqued, etc.

RighteousnessTemperance& said:

That states an assumption with no proof, or even explanation. One would have to demonstrate (pun intended) that the demons Paul refers to cannot go by names the Gentiles use for them, that is, for their false gods to whom they are sacrificing.

Click to expand...

I have not said that demons cannot go by the names that the Gentiles use for them. That is not the point of what I am getting at.

I know from first-hand experience with many of my close family members in an Asian country who go regularly to temples to worship physical objects as their gods that they do not have any thought in their minds that they are actually worshiping demons. Many of them would vehemently deny that they are doing so even they also believe in evil spirit beings.

We know from Scripture that God is omnipresent. Groups of believers in numerous places in the world can and do simultaneously worship Him in His very presence with them.

On the other hand, although demons are also spirit beings, they are localized spirit beings in the sense that they can only be in one place at a time. If having fellowship with demons means to have some manner of actual, direct spiritual interaction with demons, the demons would have to be actually present in the locations where the idolaters who have sacrificed things to idols on altars have done so.

Scripture More Accurately said:

The Bible says that the devil deceived Eve, but he did not deceive Adam (1 Tim. 2:14). Neither the devil's deception nor his disinformation, therefore, was the source or cause of Adam's sinning against God.

Neither Eph. 2:2 nor Eph. 6:12 teaches or establishes in any way that all "disinformation" has demonic activity or teaching as its "spiritual origins."

Neither Eph. 2:2 nor Eph. 6:12, therefore, establishes in any way that having fellowship with demons through the offering of sacrifices to an idol necessarily is the result of demonic activity or teaching in the minds of people.

This position is not supported by Scripture:

Click to expand...

No matter what position you take, your assertions seem to rely on disinformation.

Did anyone say Adam was deceived? Nope
Did anyone say "all" disinformation has demonic origins? What was said? "Folks read Ephesians 2:2 or 6:12 concerning the spiritual origins of disinformation." Once again we see the poor hermeneutic of adding to the phrase, of disinformation as if it said, of all disinformation.

Scripture More Accurately said:

We know from Scripture that God is omnipresent. Groups of believers in numerous places in the world can and do simultaneously worship Him in His very presence with them.

On the other hand, although demons are also spirit beings, they are localized spirit beings in the sense that they can only be in one place at a time. If having fellowship with demons means to have some manner of actual, direct spiritual interaction with demons, the demons would have to be actually present in the locations where the idolaters who have sacrificed things to idols on altars have done so.

Click to expand...

Good grief, now it is claimed there is a shortage of demons such that they cannot effectively fellowship with humanity. Speculation on display.

Van said:

No matter what position you take, your assertions seem to rely on disinformation.

Click to expand...

This is utter nonsense. You are the one who is trying to make something that is peripheral to what 1 Cor. 10:20 actually talks about to be the main focus of the entire discussion.

Van said:

Good grief, now it is claimed there is a shortage of demons such that they cannot effectively fellowship with humanity. Speculation on display.

Click to expand...

This is a totally bogus comment. I did not claim any such thing. What I said was that the demons would have to actually be present in each specific location if having fellowship with demons means having some manner of actual, direct interaction with them.

Scripture More Accurately said:

This is utter nonsense. You are the one who is trying to make something that is peripheral to what 1 Cor. 10:20 actually talks about to be the main focus of the entire discussion.

Click to expand...

Claiming you are correct and disparaging me does not move the ball, it is fallacious argumentation.

Scripture More Accurately said:

This is a totally bogus comment. I did not claim any such thing. What I said was that the demons would have to actually be present in each specific location if having fellowship with demons means having some manner of actual, direct interaction with them.

Click to expand...

This is what was said:

If having fellowship with demons means to have some manner of actual, direct spiritual interaction with demons, the demons would have to be actually present in the locations where the idolaters who have sacrificed things to idols on altars have done so.

Click to expand...

Now it is claimed the above does not suggest the absence of actual demons, and therefore direct fellowship is unlikely. Fine

Van said:

This is what was said:

Now it is claimed the about does not suggest the absence of actual demons, and therefore direct fellowship is unlikely. Fine

Click to expand...

Nonsense. You routinely engage in intellectual misrepresentation to distort what I have said or falsely claim that I have said something when I did not say any such thing.

I never said anything to the effect that the actual presence of demons would somehow be difficult, problematic, or any such thing. I also did not say anything about "direct fellowship is unlikely."

It is your disinformation that is raising such false claims repeatedly.

Scripture More Accurately said:

Nonsense. You routinely engage in intellectual misrepresentation to distort what I have said or falsely claim that I have said something when I did not say any such thing.

I never said anything to the effect that actual presence of demons would somehow be difficult, problematic, or any such thing. I also did not say anything about "direct fellowship is unlikely."

It is your disinformation that is raising such false claims repeatedly.

Click to expand...

More slander, more disinformation.

Did I say He implied something? Nope. I said He claimed He did not suggest "the absence of actual demons, and therefore direct fellowship is unlikely. I said fine.

Notice he is not addressing my interpretation of 1 Corinthians 10:19-20. Here it is again:
https://www.baptistboard.com/bible/1-corinthians/8:10/

To examine further what having fellowship with demons is in 1 Cor. 10:20, it is useful to compare the Greek of 1 Cor. 10:20 with a different passage in the Greek NT that has the same verb γίνομαι used with the same noun κοινωνός:


Although the grammatical construction is different in Hebrews 10:33 from what it is in 1 Cor. 10:20, the use of the same noun and the same verb in both passages may help shed light on what the exact meaning of having fellowship with demons is in 1 Cor. 10:20.

[First statement removed.] Calvinists have long used the claim something Gnostic in Greek Grammar indicates their mistaken view of a verse is indicated by unrevealed knowledge. Same idea that spawned the Reformation, where scripture was presented in Latin, then "explained" in the native language.

Was any light shed by post #36? Nope. Was the "exact meaning of having fellowship with demons" stated? Nope

Hebrews 10:33 says "you became companions" and 1 Corinthians 10:20 says "you to have fellowship"

Now here is a snippet from Thayer's:

Thus the actual contextual and grammatical view of 1 Corinthians 10:18-20 is:

Scripture More Accurately said:

I have not said that demons cannot go by the names that the Gentiles use for them. That is not the point of what I am getting at.

I know from first-hand experience with many of my close family members in an Asian country who go regularly to temples to worship physical objects as their gods that they do not have any thought in their minds that they are actually worshiping demons. Many of them would vehemently deny that they are doing so even they also believe in evil spirit beings.

Click to expand...

It is quite believable that such would be the case with those you know. But that does not demonstrate a difference with what Paul is talking about.

Where does Paul state that these Gentiles know or agree that they are sacrificing to devils? Their understanding is not a prerequisite to the underlying reality.

Paul is explaining that reality to Christians. What one claims to be doing or thinks he is doing is not necessarily the reality of it.

1 Cor 10:19-21
19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

RighteousnessTemperance& said:

It is quite believable that such would be the case with those you know. But that does not demonstrate a difference with what Paul is talking about.

Where does Paul state that these Gentiles know or agree that they are sacrificing to devils? Their understanding is not a prerequisite to the underlying reality.

Paul is explaining that reality to Christians. What one claims to be doing or thinks he is doing is not necessarily the reality of it.

1 Cor 10:19-21
19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Click to expand...

I have never made the claim that the person's understanding is a prerequisite to the reality of what is happening.

What it does show is that the person who asserts as true that the origins of offering sacrifices on an altar to an idol was demonic implantation of that idea in the minds of idolaters has to prove that from Scripture. Mere assertion is not proof. Citation of general biblical statements about demonic activity is not proof.

To my knowledge, Scripture does not provide any such explicit historical revelation. If you know of a place in Scripture that specifically documents the demonic implantation of that idea in a person's mind that led to their engaging in that practice, I would like to know where the Scripture specifically teaches that.

Paul is addressing a problem we also see in the letters to the seven churches in Asia minor, that being the tendency of Christians to compromise in order to have a job or keep their position in the community. In order to do this, we find in Revelation, people had to worship the god's of the trade guild or participate in honoring Ceasar as Lord (god). Christians were trying to determine what they could do and what they couldn't do in regard to the culture around them. Paul is speaking to this issue in 1 Corinthians 10 when he walks them through the exodus and the various actions of the Hebrews while on their journey in the wilderness. Paul specifically points out sins that led to judgment by God and warns the Corinthians not to follow in those acts of sin.

Now, verses 14-22 we see Paul speaking about communion around the Lord's table. In receiving communion the believers are declaring themselves to be one with Christ Jesus while separating themselves from the gods of the trade guilds or Ceasar worship. Paul is telling the Corinthians that there is no way you can declare Jesus as Lord and have union with Christ Jesus while still participating in the ceremonies of the trade guild gods and honoring Caesar as Lord. To participate in the pagan ceremonies to the trade guild gods or in calling Caesar Lord would be to declare allegiance to demons. Such a declaration, after declaring that Jesus is Lord by participating in communion, would lead to provoking God to jealousy.

*1 Corinthians 10:14-22*
Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the people of Israel: are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar? What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?