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General Reconciliation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Apr 18, 2023.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I do not advocate "universal atonement" but I do advocate "general reconciliation." The difference between general and universal is that universal suggests that the reconciliation is applied individually to everybody. I do not think this is what the bible teaches. But Jesus being the propitiation for the whole world, God reconciling the world to Himself, indicates redemption is available to everybody; Jesus having paid the ransom for the many. If you continue reading in 2 Corinthians 5:18-21, you see that being reconciled in the general sense, does not indicate you have "received" the reconciliation individually, that is why we have the ministry of reconciliation. Therefore the difference between general reconciliation and individual reconciliation is in who has "received" the reconciliation. And this occurs when God places us individually "in Christ." (1 Corinthians 1:30)

    Here is a summary of Particular Reconciliation and General Reconciliation

    Particular Reconciliation:
    (1) God preselected folks for salvation before creation
    (2) Christ came and died for those folks - limited atonement
    (3) God gives those folks faith in Christ, then accepts their faith and places them in Christ.

    General Reconciliation
    (1) God selected Christ to redeem mankind before creation. Therefore those chosen and placed in Christ during their lifetime through belief in the truth were corporately chosen as the target group of His redemption plan before the foundation of the world.
    (2) Christ came and died for mankind in general but not specifically for each individual.
    (3) God chooses folks and places them in Christ after accepting their faith and reckoning it as righteousness.

    The first point of difference centers on the meaning of Ephesians 1:4 which says we (born again believers) were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Particular Reconciliation maintains that being chosen in Him means being chosen as foreseen individuals. General Reconciliation maintains that being chosen in Him means Christ was chosen to be the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world and anyone subsequently redeemed by the Lamb was corporately chosen because you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem..

    The second point of difference centers on the meaning of 1 John 2:2 which says He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. Particular Reconciliation maintains that Jesus is the propitiation not only for elect Jews but also for elect Gentiles. General Reconciliation maintains that Christ is the propitiation not only for believers, but also for everybody else, the whole world. Propitiation means that God’s acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice provides the means of salvation, the mechanism of reconciliation for all of humanity, thus His death was a ransom for all.. When God puts a believer spiritually in Christ they “receive” the reconciliation provided by Christ’s sacrifice.

    The third point of difference centers on the meaning of Romans 4:5 which says but to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. Particular Reconciliation maintains the “his faith” was supernaturally given to him by God because the unregenerate are spiritually unable to trust in Christ. General Reconciliation maintains “his faith” is the individual’s trust in Christ, because if it were God’s gift of faith, it would not need to be reckoned as righteousness.
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Is an argument over the use of terminology and to be,its to be allowed meaning.
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree. Scripture tells us that the Cross was God reconciling man (mankind....or as the Early Church put it, the "human family") to Himself and that this is the basis for individual reconciliation (men being urged to be reconciled to God).
     
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  4. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I encourage you to look at it again, Jon:

    " Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
    18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."
    ( 2 Corinthians 5:17-19 ).

    Firstly, I see that if any man ( human ) be in Christ, they are a new creation...old things are passed away, all things are become new.
    Secondly, God reconciled those that are in Christ to Himself ( the "us" is defined by the "any man in Christ from the prior verse ) by Jesus Christ...not all men.
    Thirdly, the "world" spoken of in v.19 are those whose sins are not imputed to them...

    Which Romans 4 clearly tells us:

    " ...Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
    8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
    "

    Blessed, not cursed.
     
    #4 Dave G, Apr 18, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2023
  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Is not "blessed" one of the descriptions reserved for those who are saved per Matthew 25:31-46, as well as Psalms 32:1-2?
    Is not "cursed" a term reserved for those who hate God and who, from the heart, refuse to repent?

    So my question to all who read this is, if all men are reconciled to God, and their trespasses are not ( not "will not be", as the passage clearly states that God WAS ( past tense ) in Christ, reconciling the "world" to Himself and not imputing their ( the "world's" ) trespasses to them ) imputed to them....

    How is anyone in Hell right now, and how is it that men will be held accountable for their sins per Revelation 20:12-13, when they are already reconciled to God and those trespasses, or sins, were not and are not imputed to them?


    Basically put, what I'm being asked to believe here ( not from the OP, necessarily, but from you, it seems ) is that God has already reconciled all of mankind to Himself, and that their sins were not imputed to them. According to what is written, they both go hand-in-hand.


    If this is true and with that in mind, I can safely say that no one will be judged, if that is what "world" means here...
    Because all of mankind are reconciled, and all of mankind has not had their sins imputed to them.

    Wouldn't you agree?
     
    #5 Dave G, Apr 18, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2023
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I am sorry but I do not understand your sentence. Did you say what "terminology" is being argued? I addressed three verses explaining my view.
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I have looked at it (several times). No, I wouldn't agree. But that's fine, we don't have to agree.

    The part I don't particularly like is when members (not you, just in general) present their interpretation as the only interpretation when for centuries it did not exist.

    I first encountered the idea of mankind being reconciled in studying Early Church writings. They often made a point of specifying Christ as having reconciled "the human family" to God in order that men may be reconciled.

    At the time I did not agree with that understanding, but at the same time it was odd (to me) that this was the universal position within early Christian theology. I chalked it up to an immature early theology that lacked the theological building blocks upon which we stand.

    I came to an Early Church interpretation later in life, AND (strangely) apart from the writings of the Early Church (unless the fact the Early Church held to the reconciliation of mankind lingered somewhere in my mind, which is possible).

    Again, we don't have to agree. But I have examined and reexamined this many times.
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    2 Corinthians 5:19 (NASB)
    namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and has committed to us the [message] of reconciliation.

    In this slightly interpreted version, reconciling is in the present tense, thus God has not yet reconciled all of humanity that may in the future be reconciled. Ditto for "counting," it too is in the present tense indicating an ongoing action of individual reconciliation as people come to faith as determined by God.

    In this verse "the world" refers to all humanity, and God is reconciling humanity one sinner at a time, thus an ongoing action of individual reconciliation.

    To not count a sin means that the penalty for the misdeed is not counted against that particular person, i.e the sin penalties of those reconciled to God are forgiven and remembered no more forever.

    In summary no verse says or suggests "all people are or will be reconciled."

    The past tense "was in Christ" refers to the finished mission of Christ to become the means of salvation for all humanity, but only those God sets apart in Christ and undergo the washing of regeneration "receive" the reconciliation.
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I wanted to reply in two posts for clarity.

    Does the Cross meaning God reconciled mankind (or as first millennia of the Church held, the "human family") basically equate to all men being reconciled to God (or universal salvation)?

    No.

    But it does mean that all are ultimately judged on the basis of Christ, and it does move how we view Judgment from a primarily Paterology position to a Christocentric base (something unacceptable in many post Reformation theologies).
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hilasterion
    Before we even think about studying hilasterion and the related words hilaskomai and hilasmos, we must address the three cornerstone words of salvation - propitiation, the means of salvation, redemption, the act of salvation, and reconciliation, the result of salvation. Our word study below enters into the arena of the means of salvation, which is Jesus Christ.

    Hilasterion
    Our best understanding is that hilasterion referred to the lid of the ark of the covenant, which was sprinkled with blood, and thus referred to as the mercy seat. Articles on its meaning are filled with classic words like expiation, atonement, and propitiation, all of which convey almost nothing to the modern reader. In a nutshell, under the Old Covenant, the blood of animals was sprinkled on the hilasterion on the day of atonement to provide temporary reconciliation with God and avoidance of the wages of sin.

    Under the New Covenant, Jesus, covered with His precious blood, became our "hilasterion" (and our blood sin offering) as the means of everlasting reconciliation with God and avoidance of the wages of sin.

    Three related Greek words (Hilasterion and Hilasmos-nouns and Hilaskomai -verb) appear 6 times in the New Testament, Romans 3:25, Hebrews 9:5 ; 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10, Luke 18:13, and Hebrews 2:17. If we look at several translations we find the words translated as (1) propitiatory sacrifice; (2) propitiation; (3) mercy seat; (4) atonement and (5) atoning sacrifice for the nouns; with the verb being translated as (1) have mercy; (2) be merciful; (3) turn your wrath; and (4) make propitiation.

    In short the verb refers to the act of having mercy and the noun to the means of having mercy. Therefore hilasterion should be understood as the means of obtaining mercy, i.e. the means of appeasement or means of reconciliation or means of salvation.
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Redemption refers to being ransomed out from something. In the case of sinners, the idea is being delivered from our initial sinful state (in Adam or in the realm of darkness) and thus refers to the deliverance into salvation. Before redemption, unsaved, but after redemption, saved. If we insert that meaning into the verses that use "redemption" we find:

    Luk 21:28
    “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your [deliverance into salvation] is drawing near.”
    Rom 3:24
    being justified as a gift by His grace through the [deliverance into salvation] which is in Christ Jesus,
    Rom 8:23
    And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the [deliverance into salvation] of our body.
    1Co 1:30 But it is due to Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and [the deliverance into salvation].
    Eph 1:7 In Him we have [deliverance into salvation] through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace
    Eph 1:14
    who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the [deliverance into salvation] of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
    Eph 4:30
    Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of your bodily [deliverance into salvation]
    Col 1:14
    in whom we have [deliverance into salvation], the forgiveness of sins.
    Heb 9:15
    For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the [deliverance into salvation] from the violations that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
    Heb 11:35
    Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their [deliverance into salvation], so that they might obtain a better resurrection;​

    Another word meaning being ransomed but not including the "out from" deliverance component, is also poorly translated "redemption." Here "ransom payment" seems to better fit the actual intended message.
    Luk 1:68
    “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,
    For He has visited us and accomplished [the ransom payment] for His people,
    Luk 2:38
    And at that very moment she came up and began giving thanks to God, and continued to speak about Him to all those who were looking forward to the [ransom payment] for Jerusalem.
    Heb 9:12
    and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained the eternal [ransom payment].​
     
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