Featured Christ being made sin Volume 2

I agreed with what you said but I never ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil but yet I am judge a sinner by what someone else who is my federal representative did... His action condemned me and the rest of this board, I know he didn't do it alone... Now to the OP if Christ was not made sin for us and he felt the full effect of our sins on the cross and you made a comment that God always loved the Son... He didn't when he became us the wrath of God was laid on him, that was meant for us... His offering?... He became us!... In his own body bore our sins... If he didn't you are still in your sins and if he didn't how?... The first Adam condemned me, the second Adam (the Lord from Heaven) saved me!... When our sins were laid on him!... Brother Glen

Matthew 27: 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

 

@JonC , I don't honestly understand what you are saying here. I don't mean that as a dismissal but I really don't understand what you are trying to say. Owen said that in every sacrifice for sin there was an imposition of sin on the beast to be offered antecedent unto the sacrificing of it, and therein its suffering by death. Therefore in every offering for sin, he that brought it was to "put his hand on the head of it," Lev. 1:4. And that the transferring of the guilt of sin unto the offering was thereby signified, is expressly declared, Lev. 16:21. Wherefore if God made the Lord Christ a sin-offering for us, it was by the imputation of the guilt of sin unto him antecedently unto his suffering. (Owen)
It sounds like that is what everybody is saying.

 

When you guys parse Greek and Hebrew words you lose me but from what I know, Martin's post #12 would agree with Owen's take on the subject. @JonC , are you moving towards more of a substitutionary view of the atonement? That's good.

 

Did not, the Christ, become the sin, "offering," because of having become, "the sin," of us all?

 

a transference of our sins from us

Question's

Where did your sins go?

1 Cor 15:17 and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;

When? When did they (your sins) go away in, it?
What caused them (your sins) to go away his blood?
Was it because before the death of Christ the soul (living) of the flesh of him (Christ) was in the blood of him?

What about after the resurrection? Is John 5:21-26 relevant? Is he raised from the dead by the Father with life inherent in the flesh of himself and to quicken whom he will? See also 1 Cor 15:45,46 so also it hath been written, 'The first man Adam became a living creature (soul),' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.

 

Can you give me a chapter and/or page number, please? This is not one of Owen's books that I possess, but it's readily available on line Until I see what Owen actually wrote, I can't really comment on it.

Yep! I kinda knew that.

I can't object to Owen's interpretation of Christ being made sin because I don't know what it is yet. I objected strongly to yours, and still do, because you were using it as part of your argument against the Doctrine of Penal Substitution. Whatever Owen wrote, he did not do that.
You have brought in a pretty big gun to defend your position, but it does not alter my view, which is based solely on the word of God. It is not only the ridiculousness of having two different meanings of the same word close together in the same sentence. There are several other arguments which I have mentioned previously and can repeat if you really want me to.

 

It seems like Owen was saying that the sins were put on Christ like they were put on a sacrifice in the Old Testament by laying your hand on the head of the sacrifice. The animal was then slain as a "sin-offering". I think 2 Corinthians 5:21 is saying that the sins were transferred to Christ, yet Christ himself had not been a sinner and had not incurred any guilt of his own. What am I missing here?

 

The reason we will never get anywhere in a meaningful discussion of the atonement is that I can't understand why you don't realize that your statement above is a direct contradiction of itself. Yes, Christ bore our sins. And the iniquity of us was laid on Him. And in the next sentence you say they can't be transferred from us? It seems like you just said they were.

It becomes an "offense" that I am guilty of. The fact is, unless sin can be transferred, Christ cannot bear it, because he didn't actually do it Himself, and verse 2 Corinthians 5:21 won't apply to you.

There is simply no way to say that sin can be born by Christ and then say that it cannot be transferred to him.

 

Are you saying that sin could be a 'not so tangible attitude'?

28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Mt 5

15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2:15

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. Ro 7

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Ro 8

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb 4

10 I, Jehovah, search the mind, I try the heart, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings. Jer 17:10

...lol, just 'lusting to speed' could be a sin... If it weren't for that pesky speed limit law, there'd be no problem:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Howbeit, I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet:
8 but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting: for apart from the law sin is dead. Ro 7

 

My understanding of the definition of sin.

Sin is the transgression of the law.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

There is no mystery here.

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Ro 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Cain murdered Abel and was not charged with murder before the law and was allowed to live.

A man gathered sticks on the sabbath and was put to death under the Mosaic law because the law forbade it.

This kinda illustrates the points if you ask me.

So Jesus Christ our Lord and savior was made the personification of sin and dealt with all transgressions of all men in a one time payment that God the Father, the judge of all the earth, accepted.

Glory to his wonderful name.

 

Dave, can you point me to the chapter of Owen's book that @JonC is referencing, please? Until I've read it I really don't want to comment further than I have.

 

Martin... I found this I hope it helps... Brother Glen

He Made Him to be Sin - 2 Corinthians 5:21 | Monergism.

 

Here is an excerpt from the article, which I highly agree with... Brother Glen

III. We may see three things concerning ourselves:—

1. Our own sin and guilt: he was made sin "for us." If Christ was made sin for us, then we were sinners.

2. We may remember our deliverance,—how we were delivered from sin, and all the evils of it. It was not by a word of command or power, or by the interposition of saints or angels, or by our own endeavours; but by the sufferings of the Son of God. And,—

3. God would have us remember and call to mind the state where-into we are brought,—which is a state of righteousness; that we may bless him for that which in this world will issue in our righteousness, and in the world to come, eternal glory.

These things we may call over for our faith to meditate upon. Our minds are apt to be distracted; the ordinance is to fix them: and if we act faith in an especial manner in this ordinance, God will be glorified.

 

I may not phrased that very well, however were not our sins removed and or carried away? What does blood have to do with sin? Were our sins removed and or carried away in or by the blood of Jesus.

Does that mean in the death of Jesus?

What does blood have to do with sin and why?

 

That's great, Glen! Thanks.
I don't think that can be what @JonC was referring to though.