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A good question
- Thread starter Van
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Falsehood number one, no scripture has been produced to support those born anew are to engage in evangelism to hasten the day of His return. About a dozen verses have been referenced. All this poster has done is to say "taint so" and claim they do not say to engage in evangelism, or hasten the day, or by logical necessity reduce the number of the many who do not find the narrow path that leads to life.
You can post denial of God's word till the cows come home. "Taint so" does not demonstrate support for another view.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
The context of 2 Peter 3 has been demonstrated beyond any doubt to not support the claim that diligent evangelism hastens the day of Christ return or lessens the number of people not going to heaven. That doctrine must be read into the text.
All the other passages that mention evangelism, as commanded by our Lord, do not support these claims, despite the declaration they do. They must be read into the text.
Personal attacks demonstrate weakness of an argument. The more the personal attacks, the weaker the argument. Let’s see if the personal attacks continue.
peace to you
God uses the preacher of His Word to cause sinners to repent and believe. No Reformed person denies this truth since God had Paul write it. This is why the obedient, Reformed, Christian preaches the Gospel in word and deed.
The question, however, is still this: Who wins souls, God or man?
Van pointed to this text:
*1 Corinthians 9:16-27*
For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but if not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship. What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel. For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings. Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
Does Paul boast in winning souls as though he was the cause agents in salvation? What is Paul declaring about the means of salvation in this passage? (Hint: he is not telling you.)
You get too caught up in the language people use - to the extent you seem to condemn Paul for saying his goal is to save people (1 Cor 9:22). In the end you are fighting windmills.
Yet another brilliant "tanit so" post containing nothing but hyperbole.
What does it mean to regard the patience of the Lord as salvation?
Does the delay of Christ's return contribute to the salvation of those already saved? Nope (Except perhaps additional rewards through effective ministry.)
No, the delay is to provide more time for Christ's servants to preach the gospel and help to win some, i.e contribute to their salvation by tilling, planting, and watering. Does our evangelism save anyone? Nope, it is God alone who causes the increase in the number of His chosen people.
Romans 9:22
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction?
Romans 9:23
And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
Romans 9:24
namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles,
If Christ had returned 500 years ago, we would not be citizens of God's eternal kingdom.
We are to be doers of the word, not just hearers. We are to be ready day and night to give an account for our hope.
2 Peter 3:12 NASB
looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
The Greek word translated "hastening" appears 6 times in the NT, and the NASB translates it uniformly as "hurry, hurried, or hurrying." Thus this verse would read "looking for and hurrying the coming of the day of God" if translated concordantly. But since such a view is rejected by some, the more obscure translation choice appears in the text.
How, contextually are we to be hurrying the day of Christ's return? By engaging in "holy conduct and godliness!" And as ambassadors of Christ, what does our "holy conduct and godly behavior include? Evangelism, reaching and teaching and training those open to fully following Christ.
looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
The Greek word translated "hastening" appears 6 times in the NT, and the NASB translates it uniformly as "hurry, hurried, or hurrying." Thus this verse would read "looking for and hurrying the coming of the day of God" if translated concordantly. But since such a view is rejected by some, the more obscure translation choice appears in the text.
How, contextually are we to be hurrying the day of Christ's return? By engaging in "holy conduct and godliness!" And as ambassadors of Christ, what does our "holy conduct and godly behavior include? Evangelism, reaching and teaching and training those open to fully following Christ.
Yup. And then spouts imaginary maxims, imagining himself to be a great philosopher.
The Lord is being patient so that He loses none. As in the days of Noah, when few souls were saved, once all the heirs of grace were entered into the Ark, and the door was shut, and the floods came...
...so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. Once the last of the elect has entered Christ, the Door will be shut and the End will come.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
The context supports “hastening unto”. Even if it means “hastening the day” of the coming of Christ (it doesn’t in context), the activity mentioned by Peter is godly living not evangelism.
Peter does not mention evangelism as “hastening the day” of the coming Christ. Peter does not say diligent evangelism lessens the number of people who don’t make it to heaven.
Both of those ideas are read into the text in a desperate attempt to find a verse that slays Calvinism.
Add to this inappropriate interpretation a constant mockery, insults and other personal attacks toward Christians pointing out the error we simply have another waste of cyberspace.
peace to you
Yes, and God already knows the hour, meaning, despite any effort or faithfulness or faithlessness on our part, the hour doesn't shift. It's set. Each day hastens it's approach.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Very good point. Scripture specifically states God has already set the day of Christ return. Our activities don’t hasten or delay, although we are privileged by God to be a part of His redemptive plan and should be diligent in evangelism.
The difference is obvious. One approach focuses on man and our work, the other recognizes the truth of God and His redemptive work.
peace to you
So you are saying our efforts to till the ground, plant and water cannot hurry the return because it is all predestined to take place over a fixed time? That is not supported by scripture.
As I told you "unto" is not, repeat not in the Greek text. Do you understand? You are basing your view not on scripture but on an addition to the text by one translation team. The NKJV does not have "unto."
Next you claim godly living does not include evangelism. Complete nonsense.
I am not reading hurrying the day of the Lord's return into the text, it is there for all to read.
Inappropriate interpretation doctrine denies the very words of God's inspired text, resulting in a constant mockery of God, and attacks upon all those presenting the mainstream view of 2 Peter 3:12.
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(12) Hasting unto.—There is no “unto” in the Greek. The margin is probably right, hasting the coming—i.e., hastening Christ’s coming by holy lives, by helping to make the Gospel known to all nations (Matthew 24:14), so as to “accomplish the number of the elect,” and by praying “Thy kingdom come.” (Comp. 2Timothy 4:8; Revelation 22:20.) The thought is singularly parallel to St. Peter’s speech in Solomon’s Porch (Acts 3:19-21, where see Notes); and as the thought is striking and unusual—perhaps nowhere else in the New Testament distinctly—this coincidence may fairly be admitted as a note of genuineness.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
So, a commentator says “hastening the coming of Christ” is PROBABLY correct and based on “probably” an extensive end times doctrine is proclaimed where Christians are determining when Christ returns and how many people go to heaven.
Please notice the commentator elaborates on his comment saying Peter’s view is to “accomplish the number of elect”.
So, the commentator quoted does not agree with the OP’s statement of lessening the number of people not going to heaven and any “hastening the return of Christ” is seen as accomplishing the redemption of the elect.
Another failed attempt to disprove Calvinism.
peace to you
2 Peter 3 tells us about hastening God's judgment. How is that judgment, by fire, upon the servants of the beast "hastened?"
It is hastened by our holy living, in comparison to their godless living. How is our holy living hastening that day, Van? That is the question of 2 Peter 3.
*2 Peter 3:1-18*
This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Tell us where "tilling the ground and watering" is found in 2 Peter 3, Van. Can you acknowledge that you are reading into the chapter what the chapter does not explicitly or implicitly state?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
There is no doubt the doctrines being asserted (that diligent evangelism hastens the day of Christ’s return and lessens the number of people who do not go to heaven) is being read into the 2 Peter 3 passage.
The OP admits as much when the statement is used that evangelism is part of godly living (used in the passage) and then launches into the claims.
Peter does not address evangelism at all in these passages.
peace to you
RipponRedeaux
Well-Known Member
A snippet from Romans 11:25
"...Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in."
That is, until all whom God is determining to save from among the Gentiles be saved.
And regarding 2 Peter 3:9, John Owen in his book The Death Of Death In The Death Of Christ says :
" to argue that because God would have none of those to perish, but all of them to come to repentance, therefore he hath the same will and mind towards all and everyone in the world (even those to whom he never makes known his will, nor ever calls to repentance, if they never once hear of his way of salvation), comes not much short of extreme madness and folly." (pages 236,237)
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