Featured Isaiah 53...

I think the whole idea of being "in Christ" or our union with Christ should be taught more to all of us. I know that Romans 5 and 6 go into this a lot and I have read enough to know that people are all over the place on exactly how to treat the concept of our union with Christ. But I like Philippians Ch. 3 for this. Paul goes back and forth between the idea of Christ apprehending him and him pursuing Christ. He is careful to balance the active striving for obedience with the idea of wanting to be found in Christ, not having his own righteousness. He warns about those who continue to live after the flesh and he ends the chapter by pointing out that we have to wait for the redemption of our actual physical bodies.

So yes I agree we are and I know that some quibble over whether we are already dead to sin versus the idea that we must put to death the deeds of the body and so on. But scripture is pretty clear in that "if any man be in Christ he is a new creation".

 

God bruised Christ:
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isa 53

Satan bruised Christ:
15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

Add that to the list of post #50.

 

Isaiah 53:6, ". . . and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . ." I call this a penal substitution.

 

I’ve read through this thread and some related others. It seems that the suffering and death of Christ encompass more than one or the other view, that is, there are several aspects, all of which need to be acknowledged and considered biblical and not necessarily exclusive of the others.

However, my point at this time is to ask that a more complete comparison be considered when arguing about “for” vs “instead of.”

Christ died for our sins means, perhaps among other things, that Christ died for our sins instead of us dying for our sins. That is the substitution in question, which hardly seems could be a question, but rather a necessary and obvious point of agreement.

 

Thanks for the reply. There is a lot packed into the biblical presentation of Christ suffering and dying for our sins—but not left there. “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” It’s not clear that any theory as argued is covering it all. There’s a lot to cover. The blood of Jesus can do it, though.

 

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Adding post #102 to the list:

Who bruised Christ?:
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isa 53
14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

Who sold Joseph into Egypt?:
20 And as for you, ye meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Gen 50

Who moved David?:
And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah. 2 Sam 24:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 1 Chron 21:1

Who enticed Ahab?:
20 And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner; and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before Jehovah, and said, I will entice him.
22 And Jehovah said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, Jehovah hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets; and Jehovah hath spoken evil concerning thee. 1 Ki 22

Who afflicted Job?:
11 But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
12 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah. Job 1
5 But put forth thy hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
6 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thy hand; only spare his life. Job 2

Who tempted Christ?:
1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil Mt 4 [Mark 1:12]

Who sifted Peter?:
31 Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat: Lu 22

Who buffeted Paul?:
7 And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch. 2 Cor 12

Who crucified Christ?:
10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth this man stand here before you whole.
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against his Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass. Acts 4"