Featured Romans 3:21-26 doesn't support penal substitution

I don't think this is so at all. God always knew exactly what He was going to do before the Fall. That is why the rescue plan is announced immediately. The Seed of the woman shall crush the serpent's head (Genesis 3:15).

God acts in both wrath and mercy. The wrath or righteous anger of God is a very real thing as may be seen in the golden calf incident. 'The LORD was angry enough with you to have destroyed you' (Deuteronomy 9:8). But God's plan involved Israel as the nation into which the Messiah should be born. But God has chosen a vast number (Revelation 7:9-10) of guilty sinners for salvation. These He has given to the Son to redeem, while the Holy Spirit will draw these people, sanctify them and seal them for the day of redemption.

Physical death is disaster. 'A live dog is better than a dead lion.' Death for those outside of Christ leads only to judgment (Hebrews 9:27). The death that is spoken of in verses like Colossians 3:3 is our union with Christ. Just as He has died and risen again to new life, so we, who were spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, have died to sin and risen to sit with Him in the heavenly places (Ephesians 2:1-11).

No, no no!

Yes, but not physically!! Look at Galatians 2:20, KJV.
'I am crucified with Christ.....' Oh dear; he's dead.
'......nevertheless I live .....' Oh! I thought you were dead, but now you're alive.
'......yet not I ......' What's going on? First you were dead, then you were alive, and now you say it isn't you.
'.......but Christ liveth in me ......' So you are dead after all and Christ is living in you. Got it!
'....... and the life I now live in the flesh .......' What?
'....... I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.'
What does that mean? It means that the old Martin Marprelate is dead, and jolly good riddance to him. But a new Martin has risen with Christ with all his sins paid for in full, born again by the power of the Spirit, with Christ dwelling in him. So now, in the power of the Spirit, I must put to death that remnant of sin that remains, not in me, but in this mortal body (Romans 6:12-14), but I have passed from death to life (1 John 3:14) and there is no condemnation for me because I am in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). You are right that I shall not be fully free from sin until I shed this mortal body, either in death or when the Lord returns but 'Sin shall not have dominion over you because you are not under law but under grace' (Romans 6:14).

 

It isn't an error. It's a fact.

 

"With respect to God, the effect of Christ's satisfaction is the glorifying of His justice;

"for, for that end was Christ "set forth to be the propitiation,"
or to make atonement for sin;

"to declare the righteousness of God, to show it in all its strictness,

"that he might be just,
and the justifier of him that believes in Jesus;"

appear to be just in so doing; yea, all the divine perfections are glorified hereby;
(see Rom. 3:25, 26;

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,
to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,
through the forbearance of God;

26 "To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness:
that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

Ps 21:5; "His glory is great in thy salvation:
honor and majesty hast thou laid upon him.")

Adapted from: John Gill
A Body of Doctrinal Divinity
Book 6 Chapter 5

OF THE SATISFACTION OF CHRIST

new thread:
The Penal Substitutionary Satisfaction by Jesus Christ
in "The Council of Peace" from Eternity Past.

 

The fact is what I wrote.
Studies in the UK have shown that Indian families, who are mostly Hindu or Sikh, have better outcomes than indigenous British families. I do not minimize sin - it will send all those who have not trusted in Christ to hell - but the fact is that we all know people who are not Christian who live highly respectable lives. @Arthur King pointed out various mass murderers to make his point, and I am pointing out that not all non-Christians are mass murderers, adulterers or wife-beaters. The lives of many of them put some professing Christians to shame.

 

The writers of Pierced for our Transgressions quote Athanasius on page 126 and say , "This seems to present a dilemma." There are no dilemmas with God.

To be sure spiritual death is a disaster, but so, to those who do not know Christ, is physical death, since it leads to judgment. Even those who are saved should not actively seek death since that is to despise the gift of God, and to refuse further service for Him. 1 Corinthians 15:26. 'The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.'

 

In Owen's "Mortification of Sin", if I remember correctly, he at one point links sin with loss of blessing and even worse - actual active harm done by God to the one who disobeys. He even said that you don't want God to be against you. So "sin", as a thing can be destructive, or it can be pleasurable and profitable at least while you are on this earth. And even when it does bring damage and destruction that is often, according to Puritan writers like Owen, the result of God's direct displeasure (or wrath) over the presence of sin. If you try to make sin into a situational or even almost a medical type of problem that God is curing you are missing a lot.

So sin is sometimes destructive. Ask anyone with a sexually transmitted disease, or a citizen of a nation that lost a war; but often sinful behavior results in "success" by worldly standards. You get backed into a corner logically if you try to deny the primary problem with man being that we sin and actually offend God. When you start trying to make everything a matter of healing or deliverance you give an incomplete explanation of our situation. And it won't work to claim this was Owen's view.

 

Agree. Think of Job and imagine what all 'delivered unto Satan' could entail:

5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor 5

20 of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme. 1 Tim 1

26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his [GOD'S] will. 2 Tim 2

Disagree. I can't see the saints being allowed to prosper from sin:

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life. Gal 6

 

I agree with you there. But as a general consideration of the overall state of man and looking at our physical lives in the present world system the idea of natural law does not fully explain the reasons we need to be right with God. And I think that is what happens if you deny the aspect of the atonement that is penal.

It is completely true that in the end, it is of course ultimately better for everyone who follows God's will. But for now. Well, look at the exchange between Christian and Apollyon in Pilgrims Progress. Apollyon points out that people who leave his kingdom usually end up in a bad way, and he tells Christian that he will increase his wages and give him more if he will go back with him. I know a very successful guy whose motto is "Nice guys finish last". That's the common world system motto and it does work - for now.

My objection to what Arthur and Jon are saying is that I'm afraid they are overemphasizing the idea that our main problem is that sin hurts us in a natural, present way, by affecting our lives, health and happiness - when the proper thing to emphasize is the fact that we have offended a holy God and have ruined our relationship with him. And I say that because scripture says much about the success of sinful men, says a lot about the world system, and my own observation is that many times nice guys do finish last.

Regarding Galatian 6 above, that to me shows the ultimate truth of the fact that nothing is more important than having the right relationship with God. Because like the verse says, sowing to the Spirit will eventually result in eternal life. The comparison here is not because of natural things that might happen to you. Not that they won't, but that just isn't the primary concern.

 

Ecclesiastes 7:20. 'For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin. Romans 3:23. 'For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.'
@DaveXR650 will no doubt answer for himself, but I have never claimed that people have 'perfectly ordered souls' and lives. 'For we all stumble in many things' (James 3:2). In an earlier post you were talking of sinners in terms of the Maquis de Sade and other monsters. The fact is that most people quietly shuffle on towards judgment with respectable lives.
I have preached in prison in the past and the great advantage there is that people usually know they are sinners. My church has recently started a plant in the town of Budleigh Salterton. East Devon, where I live is generally regarded as the retirement capital of Britain, and B.S. is pretty much the epicentre of that*. As we have done door-to-door work, our great problem is in persuading people that they have any need of Christ. They pay their taxes, they help mow the croquet lawn twice a week, they give to good causes if someone shakes a collecting-box at them. Yet they are lost because their righteousness does not match up to the righteousness that a thrice-holy God demands. They need a Saviour, and one is graciously provided for them, but they see no need of Him.

*It is said that people come to East Devon to die; but when they get there, the air is so pure that they find they can't do it!
My excuse is that I was born here.

 

Martin, I can use all the help I can get. By the way also, I appreciate Arthur and Jon and the way they discuss things even though they don't agree with me. I find it useful and enjoy it.

To answer the question I would just say that we never have perfect order in our lives while we live in these bodies. But when we are saved there is a new principle put into us, the Holy Spirit and he gives us power to stop being dominated by sin and to have day to day practical victory over sin. For the Christian, we still have indwelling sin, which can break forth into all types of sin if we are not careful. Mortifying or killing the remaining indwelling sin is a primary function of a believer. But if you can go on like you did before you were saved and sin freely and willfully you should doubt you are a believer because that is indeed impossible. Arthur, if you don't feel like reading all the time you can listen to a MLJ archive sermon called, strangely, "The Mortification of Sin" which explains all that. And he explains what "dying with Christ" includes and doesn't include.

I won't be posting more today because I'll be celebrating our independence. Martin will know this as the Great Rebellion. If I still have enough fingers to type I'll post more later. By the way Martin, my wife and I enjoy watching British television and we especially like Midsomer Murders. Stay away from Midsomer. They have a higher murder rate than Baltimore!