Romans 3:21-26 doesn't support penal substitution

Arthur King said:

If you never physically died, you would live forever in your sinful flesh, which would be hell.

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"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though He may die, he shall live. And He who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" Those who die in Christ are spoken of as 'falling asleep (Acts of the Apostles 7:60; 1 Thessalonians 4:13 etc.).

Again, Romans 6:8 "He who has died is freed from sin."

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I don't think that has worked for the Maquis de Sade, do you?

How does one get free from sin? Dying with Christ.

True, physical death and resurrection by itself does not save people's souls. We must die and rise with Christ through confession and repentance.

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The dying you are speaking of here is not physical. It is our union with Christ, through which we are united to Him in His death and resurrection whilst we are still alive. Moreover, not all of us are actually going to 'sleep.'. See 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Are you eagerly looking forward to the coming of the Lord Jesus as the Corinthians, Philippians, Thessalonians and Hebrews were? 1 Corinthians 1:7; Philippians 3:20-21; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; Hebrews 9:28; cf. also 2 Timothy 4:8; Titus 2:11-13.

DaveXR650 said:

Martin, I can use all the help I can get. By the way also, I appreciate Arthur and Jon and the way they discuss things even though they don't agree with me. I find it useful and enjoy it.

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Yep. I suppose that if I didn't enjoy it I wouldn't do it. Iron sharpens iron. Being on this forum has made me check my presuppositions on many things, and that can only be a good thing.

To answer the question I would just say that we never have perfect order in our lives while we live in these bodies. But when we are saved there is a new principle put into us, the Holy Spirit and he gives us power to stop being dominated by sin and to have day to day practical victory over sin. For the Christian, we still have indwelling sin, which can break forth into all types of sin if we are not careful. Mortifying or killing the remaining indwelling sin is a primary function of a believer. But if you can go on like you did before you were saved and sin freely and wilfully you should doubt you are a believer because that is indeed impossible. Arthur, if you don't feel like reading all the time you can listen to a MLJ archive sermon called, strangely, "The Mortification of Sin" which explains all that. And he explains what "dying with Christ" includes and doesn't include.

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I absolutely agree. And I will look out the MLl-J sermon. I think he has probably been a greater influence on me than any other preacher or writer. As a new Christian, I used to visit Cardiff in Wales quite regularly on business, and they had a selection of his sermons on Cassette (remember them?). I used to listen to them over and over again as I drove up and down the motorways (freeways to you!). I think he went badly astray later in his life when he was far too open to charismaticism (is that a word?). But without him I think Biblical Christianity in Britain would have pretty much disappeared

I won't be posting more today because I'll be celebrating our independence. Martin will know this as the Great Rebellion.

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Yes; we're still waiting to accept your surrender.

If I still have enough fingers to type I'll post more later. By the way Martin, my wife and I enjoy watching British television and we especially like Midsomer Murders. Stay away from Midsomer. They have a higher murder rate than Baltimore!

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It's a wonder there's anyone left alive there! Actually, Midsomer is based on the county of Somerset, which is next door to Devon where I live. Folks are a bit strange there!

Martin Marprelate said:

Ecclesiastes 7:20. 'For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin. Romans 3:23. 'For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.'
@DaveXR650 will no doubt answer for himself, but I have never claimed that people have 'perfectly ordered souls' and lives. 'For we all stumble in many things' (James 3:2). In an earlier post you were talking of sinners in terms of the Maquis de Sade and other monsters. The fact is that most people quietly shuffle on towards judgment with respectable lives.
I have preached in prison in the past and the great advantage there is that people usually know they are sinners. My church has recently started a plant in the town of Budleigh Salterton. East Devon, where I live is generally regarded as the retirement capital of Britain, and B.S. is pretty much the epicentre of that*. As we have done door-to-door work, our great problem is in persuading people that they have any need of Christ. They pay their taxes, they help mow the croquet lawn twice a week, they give to good causes if someone shakes a collecting-box at them. Yet they are lost because their righteousness does not match up to the righteousness that a thrice-holy God demands. They need a Saviour, and one is graciously provided for them, but they see no need of Him.

*It is said that people come to East Devon to die; but when they get there, the air is so pure that they find they can't do it!
My excuse is that I was born here.

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So your argument seems to be, "If sin is intrinsically destructive, and if sin is rebellion against our own happiness (as I claim), then why are there people who are living without any acknowledgement of God who seem to be happy, healthy, and live well-ordered lives? If we conceive of sin as offense that will someday bring punishment in the future, that seems to have greater explanatory power regarding such people."

My first response is that this is a practical argument, not a biblical one. This isn't looking at what the Bible says first and then trying to make sense of the world from it. This is looking at the world and then trying to understand the Bible according to it. So that is reversed.

My second response is simply: time. There may be time before what is objectively true is subjectively realized. If I drink great tasting poison, there may be 10 seconds of bliss on my tongue before the poison rots my insides and sends me into a retching seizure. The 10 seconds of bliss doesn't mean that drinking poison was not destructive.

Third, there is endless data that material prosperity and worldly goods do not bring happiness. Look at the lives of wealthy celebrities. Additionally, there is plenty of upper middle class depression, divorce, suicide, etc.

Fourth, a person's personal life might not seem to have lots of brokenness, but the world does. And it is easy to trace the world's brokenness to a lack of following God's laws.

Martin Marprelate said:

"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though He may die, he shall live. And He who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" Those who die in Christ are spoken of as 'falling asleep (Acts of the Apostles 7:60; 1 Thessalonians 4:13 etc.).

I don't think that has worked for the Maquis de Sade, do you?

The dying you are speaking of here is not physical. It is our union with Christ, through which we are united to Him in His death and resurrection whilst we are still alive. Moreover, not all of us are actually going to 'sleep.'. See 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Are you eagerly looking forward to the coming of the Lord Jesus as the Corinthians, Philippians, Thessalonians and Hebrews were? 1 Corinthians 1:7; Philippians 3:20-21; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; Hebrews 9:28; cf. also 2 Timothy 4:8; Titus 2:11-13.

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We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed. We will all be changed by participation in Jesus' death and resurrection.

Again, if Jesus truly died in your place for your sins as your substitute, then you would never physically die.

Arthur King said:

We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed. We will all be changed by participation in Jesus' death and resurrection.

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We can agree upon that.

Again, if Jesus truly died in your place for your sins as your substitute, then you would never physically die.

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I think that is a non sequitur. The Christian has passed from death to life; his life is hid with Christ in God, and he is already seated in the heavenly places with Christ, all due to our Lord's penal substitution. That, unless Christ returns in his lifetime, he will have to shuffle off this mortal coil to be 'absent from the body and .... present with the Lord' (2 Corinthians 5:8) is true but not really relevant.

Arthur King said:

So your argument seems to be, "If sin is intrinsically destructive, and if sin is rebellion against our own happiness (as I claim), then why are there people who are living without any acknowledgement of God who seem to be happy, healthy, and live well-ordered lives? If we conceive of sin as offense that will someday bring punishment in the future, that seems to have greater explanatory power regarding such people."

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My argument is much more simple than that. It is that God decides what a sin is, and all sin is sin against God (Gemesis 39:9; Psalms 51:4 again! ) regardless of how 'self-destructive it may or may not be.

My first response is that this is a practical argument, not a biblical one. This isn't looking at what the Bible says first and then trying to make sense of the world from it. This is looking at the world and then trying to understand the Bible according to it. So that is reversed.

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It absolutely is. Sin does not depend on how self-destructive it is or isn't. Sin is an offence against God's holy law (1 John 3:4; Ezekiel 18:20).

My second response is simply: time. There may be time before what is objectively true is subjectively realized. If I drink great tasting poison, there may be 10 seconds of bliss on my tongue before the poison rots my insides and sends me into a retching seizure. The 10 seconds of bliss doesn't mean that drinking poison was not destructive.

Third, there is endless data that material prosperity and worldly goods do not bring happiness. Look at the lives of wealthy celebrities. Additionally, there is plenty of upper middle class depression, divorce, suicide, etc.

Fourth, a person's personal life might not seem to have lots of brokenness, but the world does. And it is easy to trace the world's brokenness to a lack of following God's laws.

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I notice that you are not bringing any Scripture to bear here, yet you have accused me of not making a Biblical argument. Here you go then: Psalms 73:4-18.

'For there are no pangs in their death, but their strength is firm.
They are not in trouble as other men, nor are they plagued like other men.
Therefore pride serves as their necklace; violence covers them like a garment.
Their eyes bulge with indulgence;
They have more than heart could wish.
They scoff and speak wickedly concerning oppression;
They speak loftily, they set their mouth against the heavens ,
And their tongue walks through the earth. ........
...... Behold, these are the ungodly, who are always at ease;
They increase in riches.
Surely I have cleansed my heart in vain and washed my hands in innocence,
For all day long I have been plagued, and chastened every morning.

So what happens to these people? Do they suffer from depression, divorce, suicide? There's no indication in the text that they do. But they have broken God's laws and He therefore will bring them down, not always in this world, but certainly in the next (Luke 16:24-25).

'Surely You set them in slippery places; You cast them down to destruction.....' Not that they do not cast themselves down to destruction through their self-destructive ways. It is God who casts them down.

Arthur King said:

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Again, if Jesus truly died in your place for your sins as your substitute, then you would never physically die.

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This is one of the most troubling aspects of Penal Substitution Theory. It holds no value in the blood of Christ (in Christ's death) as far as redemption is concerned. Christ's actual death plays no role in redeeming man as what redeems man is Christ suffering what we will not.


Penal Substitution theorist do not recognize this discrepancy. They approach the Atonement by creating a dichotomy (at least in actioning our redemption) between the Father and Son.

Rather than Christ, they believe it was the wrath of the Father exhausted that constituted forgiveness and redemption.

Martin Marprelate said:

My argument is much more simple than that. It is that God decides what a sin is, and all sin is sin against God (Gemesis 39:9; Psalms 51:4 again! ) regardless of how 'self-destructive it may or may not be.
It absolutely is. Sin does not depend on how self-destructive it is or isn't. Sin is an offence against God's holy law (1 John 3:4; Ezekiel 18:20).

I notice that you are not bringing any Scripture to bear here, yet you have accused me of not making a Biblical argument. Here you go then: Psalms 73:4-18.

'For there are no pangs in their death, but their strength is firm.
They are not in trouble as other men, nor are they plagued like other men.
Therefore pride serves as their necklace; violence covers them like a garment.
Their eyes bulge with indulgence;
They have more than heart could wish.
They scoff and speak wickedly concerning oppression;
They speak loftily, they set their mouth against the heavens ,
And their tongue walks through the earth. ........
...... Behold, these are the ungodly, who are always at ease;
They increase in riches.
Surely I have cleansed my heart in vain and washed my hands in innocence,
For all day long I have been plagued, and chastened every morning.

So what happens to these people? Do they suffer from depression, divorce, suicide? There's no indication in the text that they do. But they have broken God's laws and He therefore will bring them down, not always in this world, but certainly in the next (Luke 16:24-25).

'Surely You set them in slippery places; You cast them down to destruction.....' Not that they do not cast themselves down to destruction through their self-destructive ways. It is God who casts them down.

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"My argument is much more simple than that. It is that God decides what a sin is..."

Agree, and he spelled out His decision on what sin is IN THE CREATED ORDER. "And God SAW that it was good." God sees the goodness in the created order.

God is not just king. He is the creator. Any king can say "I don't like that behavior and I am going to punish it." Only the creator says "This is the way I have made the universe and you in it, to violate it is to destroy yourself."

"all sin is sin against God..."

Agree! And is God not our true source of happiness? So, to rebel against God, it is necessarily the case that we are rebelling against our own happiness, correct? This strikes me as inescapable.

Are we not designed to love God? So in rebelling against God, how are we not rebelling against our own design?

Again, how does a perfectly ordered being, whose loves are in perfect priority, with God at the center, nevertheless break God's laws? Please, tell me. It seems to me that only a person who disorders their soul, who replaces God with another object of worship, can ever break God's law. Someone who exchanges the creature for the Creator (Romans 1).

Jeremiah 2:13 "My people have forsaken the fountain of living waters, and formed broken cisterns that can hold no water." What happens to people who do this? They die. From the act itself.

Psalm 5:9 regarding the wicked - "Their inward part is destruction itself." Case closed.

Martin Marprelate said:

We can agree upon that.

I think that is a non sequitur. The Christian has passed from death to life; his life is hid with Christ in God, and he is already seated in the heavenly places with Christ, all due to our Lord's penal substitution. That, unless Christ returns in his lifetime, he will have to shuffle off this mortal coil to be 'absent from the body and .... present with the Lord' (2 Corinthians 5:8) is true but not really relevant.

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"...with Christ, all due to our Lord's penal substitution."

You are just arguing in a circle, re-asserting the conclusion you have yet to prove.

"...is true but not really relevant."

What?!?!?! You are trying to dismiss as irrelevant a fact that is absolutely central to the whole discussion. The central claim of penal substitution is that Jesus is punished in our place so we don't have to suffer that punishment.

So when I bring up a main punishment for sin (physical death) that you will most certainly suffer, you say "well, that's not relevant." I'll have to hold your feet to the fire on that one.

True, that Paul has a sense of time which is "we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved" but that doesn't change the fact that you will still face physical death, and that physical death is a punishment for sin.