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To Vote or Not to Vote

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by KenH, Jul 5, 2023.

  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    With the 2024 election season starting to crank up, I thought I would share an interesting perspective on the subject of voting. I am not endorsing this viewpoint(but I do think it makes interesting points), as I have been voting, even though in 2016, 2018, 2020, and 2022, I found it to be harder and harder to convince myself to go vote. One would think that with 330,000,000 citizens, that the Democratic and Republican Parties would find better candidates to run, especially for president.

    David Lipscomb quoting B.U. Watkins in Lipscomb’s book, On Civil Government: Its Origin, Mission, and Destiny, and the Christian's Relation to It.

    “One of the signs of the great Apostacy, was the union of Church and State. Its chosen symbol was a woman upon the back of a seven headed and ten horned beast. It is almost uniformly admitted, among American Protestants, that this is a well chosen symbol to represent the absurd, and unnatural union of Church and State. It is generally conceded, that the woman represents the Church, and the beast the old Roman civil government. This being true, it would appear far more natural for her to be riding the beast, than for him to have his locomotion promoted by the help of the woman! When the State comes forward and proffers its assistance, and the Church voluntarily accepts of such help, it might be a question, which would be the most to blame; the Church for accepting, or the State for offering such assistance. But when the Church gives, unasked, her power to the beast, no excuse can reasonably be pleaded. If the State supporting the Church, is called an adulterous union, I am unable to see, why the union is not equally intimate, and criminal, when the Church supports the State, by participating in all its responsibilities. When the Church offers her fellowship, and co-operation in framing all the laws of the land, and in choosing its judicial and executive officers - when even her members refuse not to become legislators, and are even forward to fill all the offices of human governments, I cannot see, but the relation between church and State, is as intimate as ever, and just as illegal. Ezekiel chided the ancient Hebrews for seeking such union with the nations; and he compares Israel to a woman of the lowest infamy. It is exceedingly painful to me, to see how aptly these symbols of John and Ezekiel apply to modern professors. But how greatly would I rejoice, if the reformation of the 19th century would arise and put on her beautiful garments, and show herself to be the true spouse of Christ. May the good Lord grant that this noble brotherhood, that I so dearly love, may soon see the whole truth! But here, I am met with the objection, that these institutions are ordained of God. And he who resists them resists an ordinance of God, and shall receive punishment. Let me here pause, and remark, that I would sooner be understood as taking the popular view of this passage, rather than appear to countenance any kind of war. Nothing is further from my intention. But the fact of civil government being ordained of God, is no proof of Divine approbation. So long as it can be clearly shown that he has ordained that one sinner should punish another, so long as we read in Isaiah, that Cyrus was sent against Babylon, although he knew not God, so long as we find it not difficult to admit the application of the above passage, to civil government, whether such be its meaning or not. To make the admission saves much time, and leaves the argument much more compact. Something is gained and nothing lost by granting all we can to our opponents. That God can overrule sin, without being responsible for its commission, and without having any complicity with it, is a thing so plain, that to turn aside to explain it would almost be an insult to those for whom these columns are written. Let a hint suffice. Pharaoh was raised up by God for a certain purpose, although his behavior was far from being approved of God. With a few axioms I will close this article. Axiom 1st, No man has the right of making laws for his own government. For such a right would include the double absurdity of making him independent of God, and responsible only to himself! Axiom 2nd. A republican government is one in which power is thought to be delegated by the people to their rulers, in their act of voting. Axiom 3rd. But a man cannot delegate a power he himself does not possess. Hence, INFERENCE 1st. As man has no inherent legislative power, he cannot transfer it to another. Hence, INFERENCE 2nd. Voting is therefore a deception, and a sham, making a deceiver of him, who votes, and a dupe of him who fancies himself the recipient of delegated power.”
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Origen defended Christianity by explaining why Christians didn't participate in politics. So refusing to vote isn't a recent development.

    There seems to be two main ideas. 1. Christians should involve themselves in politics in order to transform secular government to a more Christian view, to hold Christian values, and/or to be more accommodating to churches. 2. Christians are called to be in this world but not a part of it and therefore should separate themselves to an extent from the World, to include involvement with world powers as these powers are what we were warned about in Scripture.

    I believe it is a personal issue the Christian should prayerfully consider and then they should follow their conscious.

    I also voted in previous elections and kept track of political issues.

    I no longer vote.
     
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  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    We Christian’s already have a supreme leader and he created heaven & earth. So why insult Him???
     
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That was Origen's point (why he said Christians abstained from secular politics).
     
  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I do understand the point. Too often, imo, Christians are trusting government and political leaders rather than focusing on the cause of Christ in the world.

    In many cases there is no difference from any other active political group.

    However, we have a unique place in the USA and current world history where our voices can be heard without suffering violence (at least for now).

    I will vote. I do not expect to accomplish a lot by voting, such is the current system, but I will vote.

    peace to you
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I believe we each should follow our convictions. There are reasons to vote and reasons to abstain. I certainly don't pretend my convictions perscriptive for the actions of others.

    I think the benefit to threads like this is that we can express our views and consider why each of us hold them.

    But we have to be careful not to lead another to sin by violating their convictions.
     
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  7. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I am enjoying reading the comments and the perspectives being offered. :)
     
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  8. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Methinks:

    IMHO All of the Word of God is a contrast of the government of God VS the government of men.

    Did it begin when man elected to?
    And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
    And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Gen 3:6,22
     
  9. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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  10. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Why don't we have better candidates
    Just look at the way that the 4th Branch of government treats candidates, politics, and incumbents.

    BTW the 4th branch is the media.
     
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  11. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Cause we are human beings, and we sin. This process we have selected to pick leadership has very little to do with God and so we will continue to elect flawed people who will represent the interests of the oligarchs… and that’s leading us to disaster. Only God saves through CHRIST… then you can rest assured your leadership is pure and truly has your back.Honestly, look to the cross for that evidence of security.
     
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Yes… we mortals have been corrupted in that way.
     
  13. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    From what I have learned about the partisan media in the 19th century in the United States, the Republican and Democratic media nowadays is tame in comparison.

    Interesting, brief article on the subject:

    "For those of you despairing about the nasty tenor of elections today, the ugly partisanship of politics, the polarity of the press: Be happy you weren’t around in the 19th century.
    ...
    Jefferson v. Adams, 1800: Attack of the Personal Attacks!

    Remember those founding fathers, so brilliant, so inspirational? They were also mean. Jefferson was accused of being pro-French and running a “Congo harem” out of Monticello. Adams was accused of conspiring to marry his daughter off to the British king’s family, in order to establish a royal bloodline. Also, foes said he had smuggled British prostitutes across the Atlantic to serve his needs."

    - rest of article with some more examples at Partisan politics? Take a look at the 19th century - The Boston Globe
     
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  14. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    I was listening to a national talk show yesterday
    (not sure who it was - I was traveling outside my area)

    but he mentioned that someone asked several people

    Is Biden too old to serve (all said yes)

    He asked two other questions something about
    making good decision, or something similar
    again -all answered which was not in favor of Biden

    Who will you vote for POTUS in 2024 - all said Biden

    Go figure


    Over this next year when you talk politics - ask people "Why" are voting for a certain candidate!
     
  15. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Lots of voters no longer vote based on the qualifications of the candidates. Nowadays, they treat elections like the parties in a parliamentary system. Thus, they vote for a Democrat to keep a Republican from winning or they vote for a Republican to keep a Republican from winning. So we end up with different parties - divided up by ideologies - controlling different branches of the government based on the boundaries of congressional districts and the 2 senators per state Senate, unlike a true parliamentary system where one party at a time controls the entire government.

    When I was growing up each of the major parties had a mixture of conservatives, moderates, and liberals - with the Democratic Party leaning liberal and the Republican Party leaning conservative. And if something was to be passed the moderates in both parties could unite with the liberals in both parties to pass a bill they agreed on, or the moderates in both parties could unite with the conservatives in both parties to pass a bill they agreed on. Now with so many congressional districts being non-competitive, there is way more emphasis on toeing the party line to avoid being primaried instead of trying to persuade a wide swath of voters that you are the best person, regardless of party, for the office. Elections have little to do with persuasion nowadays but more about just ginning up the base to turn out.

    In practical terms, we now have a parliamentary party system being imposed on our constitutional system that was not designed to even have parties and the framers warned against having parties.

    Frankly, I miss Ronald Reagan. Seems like the political system has been degrading after he left office in all of the branches.
     
  16. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    That is what I like about fusion voting
     
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  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I am still expecting RFK, Jr. to make a string showing in early primaries. I have to believe many Dems will reject Biden in primaries.

    peace to you
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The 5th branch is the BB.
     
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  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Rejecting God ( from Biblword )
    When the Israelites asked for a king, God says “they have rejected me from being king over them” (1 Samuel 8:7). That was the core of their sin. They wanted to have a king “like all the nations” (1 Samuel 8:5). But God’s plan for Israel was not to let them be ‘like all the nations’! God was their king, and He ruled them directly. He spoke to His people through the prophet Samuel. But that was not enough for them. They did not want a simple prophet speaking God’s words to them. They wanted a strong and mighty king! And they forgot the Lord Himself was their strong and mighty king.
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    :Laugh
     
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