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Featured Did Jesus die as payment we owe?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JasonF, Jul 11, 2023.

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  1. JasonF

    JasonF Member

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    I have gotten confused here. I don't know if there is a verse that specifically says his death was payment in our place, but that seems the only conclusion for why he died, but someone said something that made it seem like they think he did not die in our place?

    I am not trying to get into a huge theological issue, I am not sure why this would have divided opinion. What is the best way to see the relevant Bible verses on this?

    Thank you for any help.
    Jason
     
  2. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
     
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  3. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    On the Cross, he became sin (God treated him as if he had sinned, our sin) who knew no sin. So he took what was owed to us, i.e. the wrath of God.
     
  4. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Excellent verse! The sins of God's people were imputed to Christ and Christ's perfect righteousness was imputed to God's people.
     
  5. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Yes forensic justification
     
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  6. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Exactly
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    There is not a verse that says Christ's death was a payment for our sins.

    What the Bible does say is that Jesus' suffering and death was a payment for us. It was what was required to redeem man.

    Scripture also does not say that Jesus' death was instead of us. What the Bible does say is that Christ died for our sins.


    If you are looking to Scripture to support the idea that Christ's death was a payment in our place then you are reading the wrong material. Rather than reading the Bible you need to reference Reformed commentaries about Jesus. Stay away from traditional Christianity, from Lutheran writings, from early church writings, from Anabaptist theology.

    If that is your goal, I would recommend reading the ideas of men like John Gill rather than the Bible - at least at first. His works and commentaries are readily available online at no cost. Once you are indoctrinated into that view then start reading the Bible to support it.

    If, however, you just want to know what the Bible teaches, then stick with the Bible and dismiss those commentaries. Indoctrinate yourself with God's Word. Afterwards, if you have time, consider what those men thought.
     
  8. JasonF

    JasonF Member

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    What do you mean when you say he died for our sins, but you don't believe he died as payment?

    So you are saying Jesus was paying for the people not their sins? Who was he paying? Why did it cost him suffering if not because of our sin i don't understand. Do you have something that explains what you are saying @JonC ?

    When we were trying to talk before you didn't give much information... You still haven't, you don't point to anything that supports what you are saying whether Bible or Lutheran or traditional church material and since you won't explain it and won't provide material resource that will i do not know how i can ever understand what you are saying.

    How is your mom?

    The gospel tracts i give out say he paid our fine i think so i need to know if that isn't true.
     
  9. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Galatians 1:4 says Christ died for our sins


    That’s just 1 verse

    pretty direct I would say
     
  10. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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  11. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree” (1 Pet. 2:24).
     
  12. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Isaiah 53:11, the prophet wrote, “By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.” Then, note the second half of verse 12: “He poured out himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet He himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.
     
  13. Keith Mullins

    Keith Mullins Member

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    1 John 2:2
    And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
     
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  14. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I mean that it was for our sins Jesus died (not for His own as He is sinless). We sinned. Sin produces suffering and death. Christ bore our sins ("shared in our infirmitiy"....our curse...our sickness....our sin).

    Traditional Christianity holds that this is unity or solidarity (that God became man, became one of us). One sect of the Reformers thought that this was replacement. They thought that Jesus died not for us but instead of us.
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Exactly!!!

    “That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.”

    The idea that Jesus died as a payment we owed is popular, but as you point out here it is foreign to Scripture.

    That brings up when question - since it is extra-biblical l, why believe it? And since it is extra-biblical, what exactly is it replacing?
     
  17. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

    1 Corinthians 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

    (emphasis mine)
     
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  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yep. Scripture does link forgiveness of our trespasses to our forgiveness of others. I believe that this is a part of repentance (not putting ourselves first, but Christ above all).

    And we were bought with a price - the previous blood of Christ.

    All of these are good points and you are right that they stand in contradiction to the idea that Christ died as a payment we owe.

    BUT here is the question - How did people get from the biblical idea that we are bought with a price to the unbiblical ideas that Christ died as a payment we owe?

    I suggest the reason may have been a handful of 16th century men dependent on a 16th century philosophy. One reason I suggest this may be the case is the fact the "theology" was not developed by theologians but by philosophers trained in secular judicial philosophy.
     
  19. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    The opposite. They back up the Biblical position of the gospel of Christ that Christ died for the sins of His people.

    "God justified His elect, who are wicked and ungodly by nature and by practice, through the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to them. God also condemned and punished the Lord Jesus Christ, the just ONE, through the sins of His elect imputed to Him. This was in no way a perversion of God’s justice. Men make it so because they hate the doctrine of imputation, especially imputed righteousness. Why? It is because it leaves them with no room to boast in (or think highly of) themselves. The glorious truth that God justly punished His Son for sins imputed to Him and that God is just to justify sinners based on Christ’s righteousness imputed to them is the heart of the Gospel, the reality of real substitution, and the glory of God’s people. It is one of the major truths separating true Christianity from all false religions.

    To impute means to “lay to the charge or account of” in the matter of the demerit or debt of sin or the merit or credit of righteousness. It has to do with one being legally and justly charged with the responsibility and liability of a debt owed or a debt paid. For example, if you were a million dollars in debt to a local bank, and you were totally bankrupt, without one penny to pay towards diminishing that debt, there would still remain one million dollars imputed or charged to your account. If you were to go to the bank and cast yourself upon their mercy, you know it would do you no good. You are in debt. The law says you are legally responsible to pay that debt. Such debt would be bondage, like being in debtor’s prison. But imagine going to the bank president to beg for mercy. The bank president says, “Let’s look at your account in the books.” He opens the books, finds your name, and he says, to your surprise, “There is no charge here to you. You do not owe one million dollars. Someone came in and told us to put your debt on his account. He said, ‘Charge it to me. I’ll pay it.’ And he did. It is paid – the whole amount. You owe nothing!” Could you imagine how relieved you would be? How legally free and liberated in spirit and mind you would be? But then the banker says, “Hold on, I have more information for you. That same person who paid your debt has placed one million dollars into your account. He said, ‘Charge or credit it to him. This is his money which I earned and have given to him.’” You must admit that if this were to happen, you would not be able to describe your joy and peace in not only having your debt paid but also in having a million dollars imputed or credited to your account. It is the same with the doctrine of imputation when it comes to the justification of a sinner.

    God does not impute trespasses to His people. He does not charge them with sin or its debt. To whom did God charge them? He charged them to Jesus Christ as the Substitute and Surety of His people. God the Father “made Him to be sin for us.” This is the imputation of the debt of the sins of God’s elect to Christ. Again, some say that it would be unjust for God to do this because Christ did no sin and knew no sin, but they fail to see the reality of real substitution and what it is to be a surety. A surety is one who willingly takes responsibility for another’s debt. In the everlasting covenant of grace, the Lord Jesus Christ willingly agreed to take responsibility for the sins, the debt, of His people."

    Bible verses for the excerpt above at SKU-000697434_TEXT.indd (b5z.net), starting at page 42, last paragraph, "IMPUTATION".

    This should be clear if one is familiar with what a surety is:

    Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

    Hebrews 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

    (emphasis mine)
     
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  20. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Well, because the logical conclusion is that if you are bought with a price and "the thing that happened" was that Christ died on the cross then one would correctly conclude that Christ died as a payment we owe. There is indeed enough scripture to show that the terms used of payment and purchasing and sin debt are indeed valid as the scriptures listed by others above show.
     
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