Featured The Penal Substitutionary Satisfaction by Jesus Christ in "The Council of Peace" from Eternity Past.

First of all, that is an invalid point. You are saying the same thing in both cases in regards to bad things happening due to your sin. The difference of creating the situation that causes the punishment verses punishing has no meaningful difference. By making the direct punisher a "tyrant" you have made it seem like a righteous God isn't allowed to punish directly. That won't work.

That's true but it's not part of any argument I'm making.

Yes. So any type of reconciliation must involve the propitiation of that wrath. Without that being part of your gospel or your explanation of the atonement you have a different gospel. Now because we are completely passive in this it is possible I think for someone to repent toward God and believe God has raised Jesus from the dead and seek to be made right with God through Jesus and yet not understand or be able to explain all this and truly be saved.

OK. But that is a partial explanation. There is and must be as well, an aspect of pardoning the wrong done as a wrong - not only as undoing the harmful results. And this is why I am concerned about the bizarre aversion to any acceptance of penal substitution. Is there some reason for this aversion? I do not believe you have the gospel right if you are deliberately disavowing this aspect.

Are the apostles here saying that theologically it was the resurrection that saves you, or were they telling those people that the proof of their message was shown in that God raised Jesus from the dead. In other words, they were using that to prove that Jesus was indeed the Messiah and God's anointed one. That was where they were at that moment, that was the over riding question, and the exact meaning of penal substitution would have been unintelligible to such an audience.

Besides, no one I know denies that the resurrection, if untrue, means that we are still in our sins. But the idea that the resurrection itself is what saves I wish you would explain. I would like to know where you are coming from. Is there a specific church or school of thought that teaches this? To say that the resurrection is part of our salvation, or to say he was raised for our justification is fine but if this is a deliberate attempt to replace Christ's death with the resurrection then I disagree.

 

Hi Alan, read closer what I have said. Jesus' death is a payment. It is a payment of obedience. It is NOT a debt of punishment because no such thing exists. Hebrews 2:14 explicitly states that the devil had the power of death. Genesis 3 explicitly states that the serpent struck the heel of the child of the woman (Jesus). Jesus says in John 8 that his death is murder by the devil.

Jesus did not offer himself to Satan. Jesus offered himself to the Father.

 

If you don't get it in Jn 8, maybe you will in Mt 23:

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

You think maybe "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" includes Christ?

 

"You are saying the same thing in both cases in regards to bad things happening due to your sin."

No, if I drive drunk and drive off a cliff, that is different than if the police catch me and give me a DUI. Driving off a cliff and getting a DUI are both bad consequences of my actions. But one is caused by my own actions. The other is caused by the actions of the justice system.

"The difference of creating the situation that causes the punishment verses punishing has no meaningful difference."

But God does not create sin. God is not the author of sin. God creates a good order, then humans violate that order. Humans cause disorder due to their sin. Because sin is disorder. A person cannot break God's laws without disordering themselves.

"any type of reconciliation must involve the propitiation of that wrath."

I have explained propitiation. It means wrath aversion or wrath reversal. It is achieved when means are provided to fix what was broken in an offense.

It is upon penal substitution advocates to prove that propitiation necessarily means "wrath exhaustion via displacement."

"Are the apostles here saying that theologically it was the resurrection that saves you."

The resurrection is not simply proof of the efficacy of Jesus' death. See Ephesians 2:1-10. The resurrection is the solution to our problem: that we are dead in sin.

Death is payment made, resurrection is payment applied. I give you $5,000 to fix your car (the death of Christ). Then you actually take that $5,000 to fix the car (the resurrection).

The problem is that we were dead in sin. The solution is resurrection in Christ. Jesus cannot be our substitute, for he cannot die in place of people who are already dead.

 

That Satan murdered Christ through 'that generation' of serpents and offspring of vipers that belonged to him.

What's your point? Are you arguing like @Martin Marprelate, that Satan didn't murder Christ? That he was too smart to do it?

 

I don't have a problem with that too much because you are saying what I've been trying to preserve; that death was the payment made. I would say it isn't applied until you believe and the resurrection is evidence you can believe but I don't want to split hairs.

 

Pertaining to 'that generation' that murdered Christ:

37 I know that ye are Abraham`s seed: yet ye seek to kill me, because my word hath not free course in you.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I heard from God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the works of your father. They said unto him, We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8

Acts 2:
…. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth… ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

Acts 3:
…Peter… answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel… his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him… ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life… whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:12-15

Acts 4:
…Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

Acts 5:
… they set them before the council…. ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us…. Peter and the apostles answered and said… The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree… we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit Acts 5:27,28,29,30,32

Acts 6 & 7:
…there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52

Acts 10:
…we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree…. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10: 39-42

Acts 13:
…Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken…they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:16,27-31

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

 

<sigh>

25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Mt 27

 

NO. Wrong. Satan did not.

Romans 8:32 God delivered his son over to death. To whom? Not Satan, but to sinful men.

Acts 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

 

So, The Serpent DID NOT bruise Christ as prophesied? God was 'mistaken' in Genesis 3:15?

 

Right. 'Sinful men' who just happened to be identified by Christ as 'Serpents, offspring of vipers, children of the devil', whose will it was theirs's to do.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8

 

Who bruised Christ?:
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isa 53
14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

Who sold Joseph into Egypt?:
20 And as for you, ye meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Gen 50

Who moved David?:
And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah. 2 Sam 24:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 1 Chron 21:1

Who enticed Ahab?:
20 And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner; and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before Jehovah, and said, I will entice him.
22 And Jehovah said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, Jehovah hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets; and Jehovah hath spoken evil concerning thee. 1 Ki 22

Who afflicted Job?:
11 But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
12 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah. Job 1
5 But put forth thy hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
6 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thy hand; only spare his life. Job 2

Who tempted Christ?:
1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil Mt 4 [Mark 1:12]

Who sifted Peter?:
31 Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat: Lu 22

Who buffeted Paul?:
7 And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch. 2 Cor 12

Who crucified Christ?:
10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth this man stand here before you whole.
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against his Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass. Acts 4

 

Right. The key is that the payment is a payment of obedience. Jesus' obedience pays for our disobedience. Disobedience is a lack (debt) of obedience.

According to penal substitution, Jesus pays our debt of punishment. But there is no such thing as a debt of punishment. Punishment cannot make restitution for anything.

 

There certainly is the idea of Jesus' active obedience being put to our account or imputed to us. But I don't agree with the idea of Jesus obedience paying for our disobedience unless you are referring to his passive obedience of dying on the cross paying for our sin.

Of course it does. We use that terminology commonly when we say someone in prison is paying a debt to society. The problem with us is that our sin against God cannot be paid for by us, even in hell for all eternity. That is why the Roman Catholic system of penance is so ridiculous and looks so silly. But if the word "penal" or "debt" seems too much of an economic exchange to suit you then just say it was necessary by God's own plan that Jesus, who is unique in his identification with God and man to reconcile us to God himself, and with the Father, so that somehow the wrath due us for our sin and the judgment upon our sin could be satisfied, yet not by us. Because you are correct in that we can't do it. As long as you say if was for our sin and by his blood I wouldn't complain.