Featured Did Jesus die as payment we owe?

The Bible says that Christ is the Surety for God's elect. A surety is obligated to pay the debt. God's elect could not pay their sin debt, so Christ was obligated to pay it for them. This is what the Bible teaches. I believe it. Obviously, you believe something other than what the Bible teaches.

 

I think the Bible says "The wages of sin is death." Hmmm, wages. Hmmm, payment. HM, Jesus dies for us. Hmmmmm, payment.

Dude argues in circles after being awake all night.

 

JonC has clearly has gone down some deep rabbit hole on the subject of Christ's atonement instead of accepting what the Bible teaches.

 

And I thought he was pretty stable in his beliefs till he started ranting and raving and accusing me of laziness or not being educated. Dude, I have 2 master's degrees from accredited theological institutions. I read more than the average bear on every topic I can.

 

" Or "covenant", for the word signifies both; and what is intended may be called both a testament and a covenant; a testament, because it is founded in the good will and pleasure of God, and respects an inheritance bequeathed by God the Father to his children, which was confirmed and comes to them by the death of Christ the testator; and a covenant, it being a compact or agreement made by the Father with Christ, as the representative of all the elect; in which promises and blessings of all sorts are provided and secured for them in him; and is called in Scripture a covenant of life and peace, because these are things concerned in it; and is commonly by men called the covenant of grace, because it springs from the grace of God, the subject matter of it is grace, and the end of it is the glory of God's grace: now this is better than the covenant of works broken by man, and which exposes him to the curse and condemnation of the law; or than the covenant of the Levitical priesthood, by which was no perfection; and the form of administration of it under the Gospel dispensation is better than that under the law, for it is now revealed more clearly, and administered without types, shadows, and sacrifices; and the extent of its administration is larger, reaching to Gentiles as well as Jews; and besides, it is now actually ratified and confirmed by the blood of Christ, which is therefore called the blood of the everlasting covenant: and of this testament or covenant Christ is the "surety"; the word signifies one that draws nigh: Christ drew nigh to his Father in the council of peace, and undertook to be the Saviour and Redeemer of his people he substituted himself in their place and stead; he interposed between the creditor and the debtor, and became surety for the payment of the debts of the latter, and so stood engaged for them, and in their room: Christ is not the surety for the Father to his people, but for them to the Father; as to satisfy for their sins, to work out a righteousness for them, to preserve and keep them, and make them happy; which is an instance of matchless love. "

- John Gill's Bible commentary on Hebrews 7:22

 

"God justified His elect, who are wicked and ungodly by nature and by practice, through the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to them. God also condemned and punished the Lord Jesus Christ, the just ONE, through the sins of His elect imputed to Him. This was in no way a perversion of God’s justice. Men make it so because they hate the doctrine of imputation, especially imputed righteousness. Why? It is because it leaves them with no room to boast in (or think highly of) themselves. The glorious truth that God justly punished His Son for sins imputed to Him and that God is just to justify sinners based on Christ’s righteousness imputed to them is the heart of the Gospel, the reality of real substitution, and the glory of God’s people. It is one of the major truths separating true Christianity from all false religions.

To impute means to “lay to the charge or account of” in the matter of the demerit or debt of sin or the merit or credit of righteousness. It has to do with one being legally and justly charged with the responsibility and liability of a debt owed or a debt paid. For example, if you were a million dollars in debt to a local bank, and you were totally bankrupt, without one penny to pay towards diminishing that debt, there would still remain one million dollars imputed or charged to your account. If you were to go to the bank and cast yourself upon their mercy, you know it would do you no good. You are in debt. The law says you are legally responsible to pay that debt. Such debt would be bondage, like being in debtor’s prison. But imagine going to the bank president to beg for mercy. The bank president says, “Let’s look at your account in the books.” He opens the books, finds your name, and he says, to your surprise, “There is no charge here to you. You do not owe one million dollars. Someone came in and told us to put your debt on his account. He said, ‘Charge it to me. I’ll pay it.’ And he did. It is paid – the whole amount. You owe nothing!” Could you imagine how relieved you would be? How legally free and liberated in spirit and mind you would be? But then the banker says, “Hold on, I have more information for you. That same person who paid your debt has placed one million dollars into your account. He said, ‘Charge or credit it to him. This is his money which I earned and have given to him.’” You must admit that if this were to happen, you would not be able to describe your joy and peace in not only having your debt paid but also in having a million dollars imputed or credited to your account. It is the same with the doctrine of imputation when it comes to the justification of a sinner.

God does not impute trespasses to His people. He does not charge them with sin or its debt. To whom did God charge them? He charged them to Jesus Christ as the Substitute and Surety of His people. God the Father “made Him to be sin for us.” This is the imputation of the debt of the sins of God’s elect to Christ. Again, some say that it would be unjust for God to do this because Christ did no sin and knew no sin, but they fail to see the reality of real substitution and what it is to be a surety. A surety is one who willingly takes responsibility for another’s debt. In the everlasting covenant of grace, the Lord Jesus Christ willingly agreed to take responsibility for the sins, the debt, of His people."

Bible verses for the excerpt above at SKU-000697434_TEXT.indd (b5z.net), starting at page 42, last paragraph, "IMPUTATION".

This should be clear if one is familiar with what a surety is:

Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Hebrews 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

(emphasis mine)

 

Yes, there are.

Yes, it is.

 

He wants a verse that says verbatim, "Jesus paid our debt." Kind of like Primitive Baptists who take election to the limits.

 

Do you believe that there is an aspect of the atonement in which Christ, by his blood, actually expiates our sin. That there is a valid scriptural concept of us having sinned against God which must be dealt with in some way by atonement? Is this part of your concept of the atonement or not? If you want to get around the idea that we can say that sin against God is either an offense (because that would involve "penal"), or a payment owed (that would involve ransom or a piling up of offense with no way to pay the price) - then I'll be OK with that. But if you just say we sinned and make no further claims - What do you think, in your own words, happened for this to be taken care of. Did anything need to happen? How is the matter of our sin dealt with by Christ in your opinion?

And here is the problem. You, and others who believe like you, like to make vague claims and references which are true in themselves and reveal many important truths. But in the end, after you have explained Christ as Victor and how he is the second Adam, and how the various meanings of spiritual death, physical death, ransom to whom and everything else you still have that basic problem of the fact we have sinned against God and is some "thing" actually done by the atonement that was essential and had to be done. You will always come back to the essence of Christ actually shedding his blood for our sins, in order to remove them. What you are saying the ECF's didn't discuss much because they didn't agree with it I say they didn't discuss it much because it was so obvious and central that it wasn't in dispute.

 

Are you a Universalist?

 

I agree with you. And I agree that you have to keep the part in mind of Christ himself, as fully a man, and as God, was himself the actual propitiation. My only concern is that there is still a true level at which our sins are dealt with as our sin, not as part of a condition of mankind, or part of the fall, or in our identity with Adam, or in the cosmic scheme of things, but as personal offenses against God that we are guilty of - and that somehow, although not fully explained to us, it is clear from scripture that Christ is actually doing something to remove or pay for or expiate or get forgiveness for those sins. And I don't know how to put that in words except to express it in terms of offense and/or owing a debt in some way.

We can go through endless arguments over whether dying for is the same as instead of or whether piling up a bunch of sins that deserve judgment can properly be expressed as a debt we owe but in the end this is truly there and we have to deal with it. Jesus did something specifically for each of us that are saved that involves directly doing something about our own, individual sins. And I think that penal substitution best describes this. Paying our sin debt describes this also. You say where is it in scripture. I would just say that if you read Hebrews chapters 9 and 10 observe that Jesus is doing something there. What he is doing there is clearly there. I describe it as penal substitution.