1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Study Question: Revelation 12:1-6 - Who is the Woman?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Aug 21, 2023.

  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    20,157
    Likes Received:
    2,988
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, Sarah the freewoman gives birth to Isaac the child of promise. And we, like Isaac, are children of promise, born after the spirit.

    23 Howbeit the son by the handmaid is born after the flesh; but the son by the freewoman is born through promise.
    24 Which things contain an allegory: for these women are two covenants; one from mount Sinai, bearing children unto bondage, which is Hagar.
    25 Now this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is: for she is in bondage with her children.
    26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4

    5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.
    17 And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus: Rev 12
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,315
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That view is not contextual. However, the women being a personification of the Holy Spirit fits surprisingly well with all the details contextually.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,315
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Assertions without evidence do not move the ball.
    John 19:25
    Now beside the cross of Jesus stood His mother, His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

    Mary being the mother of God incarnate is inescapable. Of course she did not "create" that God, but Jesus, 100% human and 100% God called her "mother."
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,315
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We certainly cannot rule out that illustration details in the book of Revelation may be symbolic rather than literal. But we certainly can disagree on just what the symbolism stands for. :)
     
  5. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    11,433
    Likes Received:
    961
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God.Three-in-One.

    Mary is the mother of Jesus on this earth. The mother of the Son.

    Mary is NOT the mother of the Father or the mother of the Holy Spirit.

    Ergo, Mary is not the mother of God.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Winner Winner x 2
  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    13,314
    Likes Received:
    1,751
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As I understand it, the title “Mother of God” is part of the Catholic doctrine regarding Mary, the mother of Jesus. Part of that doctrine is Mary’s birth (immaculate conception without sin), and her position as “Co-redemptor” with Christ.

    Referring to Mary as the mother of Jesus is biblical. Calling her the “Mother of God” is confusing, unbiblical and tends to lead to error.

    It takes nothing away from her unique role in the birth of our Lord Jesus.

    peace to you
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  7. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2023
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    100
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Of course, which is why @Scarlett O. and I can agree to disagree on this issue. There is no change in redemption by God if we disagree on who the woman is in Revelation 12.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  8. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    11,433
    Likes Received:
    961
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Exactly. Thanks.
     
  9. Michael Hollner

    Michael Hollner Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2021
    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    37
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We have with the mid-trib holding the woman as the Laodicean Church and the man-child as the Bride of Christ.
    I believe the Angel Michael is the restrainer.
    Blessings....
    [Part-12] The Woman and the Man-Child of Revelation 12 REVEALED in Bible Prophecy! - YouTube
     
  10. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2023
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    100
    Faith:
    Baptist
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,315
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Your video presents a view that my study found wanting.
    First we agree, the Women is not Mary, nor the Nation of Israel, nor the church nor Jesus.

    I disagree that Jesus was not given birth. Of course it was a virgin birth and Mary did not "create" God with us, but Jesus was certainly born of a women.

    I disagree that the "woman" is the church, as I believe the Holy Spirit gave birth to the church, made up of those born anew spiritually.

    I disagree that some professing Christians "did not pay the price." I think that indicates some sort of works is needed to be saved. But I might be reading too much into that phrasing.

    I disagree that those who are saved as if escaping from a fire will not be raptured if the rapture occurs during their post salvation physical lives.

    We agree that Rev. 12:5 refers to the child of the women, those born anew, will be caught us, raptured.

    And in summary, we disagree that the "woman" is the "lukewarm church."
     
  12. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    42,715
    Likes Received:
    1,582
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The woman is the church.

    "That woman symbolizes the Church (cf. Isaiah 50:1; Isaiah 54:1; Hosea 2:1; Ephesians 5:32). Scripture emphasizes the fact that the Church in both dispensations is one. It is one chosen people in Christ. It is one tent; one vineyard; one family—Abraham is the father of all believers whether they are circumcised or not—one olive tree; one elect race, royal priesthood, holy nation, people for God’s own possession; one beautiful bride; and in its consummation one new Jerusalem whose gates bear the names of the twelve tribes and whose foundations are inscribed with the names of the twelve apostles. (Cf. Isaiah 54; Amos 9:11; Matthew 21:33 ff.; Romans 11:15-24; Galatians 3:9-16, Galatians 3:29; Ephesians 2:11; 1 Peter 2:9 (cf. Exodus 19:5-6); Revelation 4:4; Revelation 21:12-14.)

    - from William Hendriksen's More Than Conquerors
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2023
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    100
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I see no rapture in Revelation 12. How does one see it in this passage?
     
  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    20,157
    Likes Received:
    2,988
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes. Jerusalem above is manifested in her saints here below. Old and new.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,315
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The linked video from post #29 referred to Revelation 12:5 and the use of the word translated as "caught up."
    Revelation 12:5 NASB
    And she gave birth to a Son, a male, who is going to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her Child was caught up to God and to His throne.​

    The "women's child" refers to those born anew.
     
  16. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2023
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    100
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The child is Jesus, the Promised One who ascended to heaven in Acts 1.
    The Woman is the Promise of the Redeemer (all the saints of old that longed to see the Redeemer and then, after Jesus went to heaven, all those who continue the line of the Redeemed.
    There is no evidence for a church rapture in Revelation 12.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,315
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Matthew 1:23 NASB
    “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN WILL BE PREGNANT AND GIVE BIRTH TO A SON, AND THEY SHALL NAME HIM IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”

    Mary is not, in my opinion the "woman" of Revelation 12:1, but she is the mother of God with us.
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,315
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If that makes sense to you fine. As I have explained, that view does not fit with scripture.

    Since Mary was pregnant by the Holy Spirit, your view the women was "the promise of a redeemer" rather than the agent used, the Holy Spirit, seems possible but not probable. Matthew 1:18.

    But is the woman's "Child" Jesus or the born anew members of His church or both? The church will be caught up to God. Certainly both came into being by the Holy Spirit. Note the convenient phrase "body of Christ" folds both into one.
     
  19. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2023
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    100
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well, the view I share has been most accepted view over the course of history, so it's not just my opinion.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    28,315
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Good to know. Of course the views encountered by Jesus and advocated by the Pharisees were well accepted too. :)
     
Loading...