1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Passover doesn't support penal substitution

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Arthur King, Sep 8, 2023.

  1. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Let's start with what God says to Moses in Exodus 4:22 -

    Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Israel is My son, My firstborn. So I said to you, ‘Let My son go that he may serve Me’; but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn.”’


    This is a fascinating verse, and essential for understanding the rationale behind God’s judgment upon Egypt. Israel is God’s firstborn son. Egypt has enslaved Israel, which would be understood in the Jewish mind as slavery to death. Jewish scholar Robert Alter notes the parallelism in the Biblical language between “Sheol, the underworld, and Egypt, that alien land to the south famous for its monumental cult of the dead.” (Art of Biblical Narrative, p.212) Israel is in slavery to death not only symbolically, but their sons are literally subject to mass extermination. God’s act of judgment in slaying the firstborn of Egypt is an act of retribution, He is bringing Egypt’s own sinful standard of behavior back on Egypt’s head. Not only this, but as Christians we have to understand that Egypt’s treatment of Israel in the eyes of God is a crucifixion event. It is the death of God’s firstborn son. God comes to judge Egypt as the father of a murdered son. Just as the enslavement of Israel is a crucifixion event, so the Exodus of Israel is a resurrection event. He is going to enact restitution and retribution for the wrong done: The Father is going to bring his own son back to life, by bringing Israel out of Egypt through the Exodus, and The Father is going to make the dead son belong to Pharaoh. Just as the dead animal becomes the property of the person who killed it in laws like that of Exodus 21:33.

    The Passover Lamb cannot be a “substitute” for the firstborn of the houses of Israel, because God’s firstborn son, Israel, has already been put to death by the Egyptians—that is, the death of God’s firstborn by the Egyptians is the entire basis for the judgment upon Egypt in the first place. The blood of Israel has already been shed. The narrative is not “Israel has sinned and deserves punishment, so God sends the Passover lamb to suffer their sins in their place as their substitute.” Rather, it is that Egypt has sinned by killing Israel. Israel is the victim of Egypt’s sin, so Egypt deserves punishment, and Israel deserves restitution. And the death of the Passover Lamb is the death of the Israelites under the Egyptians. The death of the Passover Lamb is a recapitulation of the death of Israel.

    So just as Egypt brought death to God’s firstborn son, God is going to bring death to the firstborn sons of Egypt. The angel of death passes over the houses of the Israelites because, obviously, innocent victims don’t deserve punishment, they deserve restitution. And as is always the case, retribution is not the main action in bringing justice to the victim. God is also going to enact restitution on their behalf and raise his firstborn son Israel from the dead. Israel will be resurrected out of her deadness in slavery, freed from the Egyptians, and even receive a bit of restitution monetarily through the plundering of Egyptian goods.

    And yet, it is a fair question to ask, “How can Israel be regarded as God’s firstborn son? We, having read the book of Genesis, know that none of the Israelites are any more moral or righteous than anybody from another nation. How can God be just in enacting restitution and retribution for a nation of people that are by no means innocent?” The answer is the Passover Lamb, the innocent party that suffers alongside Israel. The new thing that the Passover Lamb introduces into the situation is not death. Israel has suffered massive amounts of death. They are enslaved to the empire of death and their firstborn sons have been drowned. The new thing that the Passover Lamb introduces into the situation is divine innocence. God, in sending the Israelites the Passover Lamb, and in sending Jesus the true Passover Lamb, has sent a figure that is truly innocent and righteous, to suffer death along with humanity. What is unique about the suffering of the Lamb, and of Jesus, is that the suffering is unjust, whereas fallen humanity has no basis for saying their suffering is unjust.

    The blood over the doorway says “innocent blood has been shed here.” It is a sign of solidarity with innocent suffering, and choosing to side with the victim rather than the victimizer. We see this to a much lesser degree today, when after a tragedy makes the headlines, people will change the picture of their social media profile to a picture of the victim. Recall the shooting at the headquarters of the magazine Charlie Hebdo, after which people all over the world posted the French Flag as their profile picture and wrote “Je Suis Charlie,” meaning “I am Charlie.” Similarly, Christians will often set the Arabic letter “N” as their profile picture, which stands for Nazarene, in order to express solidarity with Christians who are being persecuted and killed.

    Marking the doorpost is also a sign of choosing sides. It says “I am with Israel” and not Egypt. I am with the weak, not the strong. This choice of loyalty confronted Israel while they were in Egypt, as they fell into temptation to worship the Egyptian gods. The choice of loyalty will also confront the Israelites throughout their wilderness wandering, as they are constantly tempted to return to their bondage to Egypt.

    There is a further argument to be made on the exact nature of the ritual. On a vicarious punishment system, we should expect the Israelites to tie the lamb outside the house for the night in expectation that God (or His “destroyer”) would come by and kill the lamb instead of the firstborn of the household. But this is not what happens. Instead, the Israelites themselves, the sinners in need of redemption, slay the Passover lamb. The blood of the lamb then averts the wrath of God when He comes by, but the function of the lamb is not to bear or exhaust the wrath of God in place of the Israelites. This is important data towards the Biblical understanding of “propitiation.” Again, modern Penalty Substitution advocates define propitiation as “wrath satisfying” or “wrath exhausting,” but the Biblical data indicates that propitiation simply means “wrath reversing” or “wrath averting.”

    In many ways, the Passover and the Exodus were the gospel story of the Old Testament, the story of God’s mighty act of redemption to save His people. But the Old Testament Jews never would have included as part of this story, “God punished (or satisfied His wrath) on the Passover lamb instead of us.” If Old Testament Jews would not have thought this, then New Testament Christians should not believe that God punished or exhausted wrath upon “Christ our Passover (1 Cor 5:7).”
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2023
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    100
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The whole Bible supports penal substitution.
    From Adam and Eve to the final, once and for all sacrifice of the 2nd Adam, we see a substitute that pays the penalty brought by mans sin.

    I find the objections to penal substitution to be empty complaints by those who continually desire to add "we" to the method by which they are redeemed.

    I intend for this to be my last post in this thread as I find the subject insulting to my King's sacrifice for me.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
  3. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If Jesus is your substitute, then why does he say “The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized."

    Also all of the attached.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2023
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    100
    Faith:
    Baptist
    New Covenant membership

    For I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives within me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live faith in the Sin of God who loved me and gave Himself for me. "

    <drop mic, walk off stage>
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,628
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is one of the most critical errors of Penal Substitution Theory. The reason is the importance of the Passover not only to the Hebrew faith but also as foreshadowing Christ as the Lamb.

    This is a result of starting with a theory and then looking to Scripture to support that theory. It forms a disconnect.
     
  6. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Haha if you have been crucified with Christ, then he did not die in your place. He can't die with you and instead of you at the same time, just as I cannot go to the grocery story with and instead of my wife at the same time.

    Also, you will physically die. Physical death is a punishment for sin. You also still struggle with all the other Genesis 3 punishments. If Jesus suffered your punishment in your place for your sins as your substitute, then why do you still suffer all of those punishments?
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,493
    Likes Received:
    470
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Made me think of Isa 43
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,628
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is a lot here. I just want to offer a couple of observations.

    You mention the nature of the ritual. It is the same throughout the representation of the sacrificial system as well.

    The Passover and the entire sacrificial system foreshadowed Christ (the Promise, God's Righteous). What was impacted in ritual was what would come. It was never about God punishing sins but about God delivering man from sin. That is the overreaching point of Scripture.

    Second, the word "propitiation" does not, nor has it ever, meant "wrath satisfying". The word is not even unique to judeo-christian belief. It means adverting wrath.

    A pagan offered a sacrifice to propitiate (avoid) a god's wrath. A man offers a sincere apology to propitiate (advert) the wrath of his boss. Christ is our Propitiation (in whom we escape the wrath to come).
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,628
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Mod hat on.

    This is a "hot topic" among Baptists and Reformed churches. It has been a hot topic here.

    Baptists have a history of both accepting and rejecting the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement.

    Given recent debates within the SBC (the largest Baptist denomination) and given Baptist scholars who exist on both sides of the debate it is fair to say there will be no resolution on this forum.

    But this IS a Baptist Forum. It is not an "only Baptists who accept the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement Forum". It is not an "only Baptists who reject the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement Forum".

    The topic deserves to be discussed, if for no other reason than it is a current debate among Baptists.

    But discuss the topic. Members trying to shut down discussion by pretending those who oppose their view shouldn't be on this forum, don't study Scripture, are introducing liberalism, etc. will be banned from the discussion (at minimum).

    The reason is to facilitate discussion rather than unChristian behavior because this is a hot topic.

    Mod Hat Off
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,464
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The truth defends itself.

    Exodus 12:22-23, ". . . And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning. For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you. . . ."

    One will either affirm or deny what it means.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,628
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I was thinking of this verse earlier (when I first read the OP).

    Too often when it comes to the Atonement people seem to equate God with "the destroyer". But He isn't. He frees us from the bondage of sin, which is crouching at our door as a lion seeking to devour. And at Judgment it is in Him that we escape the wrath to come as the wicked are judged.

    The Passover is perhaps the best foreshadowing of redemption (which is probably why it was so vital to the Hebrew faith).
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  12. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Did you not read the original post? God says that Israel IS the firstborn son who has suffered death. The firstborn son is ALREADY DEAD—Egypt killed him. That is the crime that occasions the whole judgment upon Egypt in the first place.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,464
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hosea 11:1, ". . . When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. . . ."

    Matthew 2:15, ". . . And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. . . ."

    Israel was the metaphor, Christ was the literal.

    Luke 1:35, ". . . And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. . . ."

    Matthew 1:21, ,". . . And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. . . ."


    Luke 2:11, ". . . For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. . . ."
     
    #13 37818, Sep 9, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2023
    • Like Like x 2
  14. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    61
    Faith:
    Baptist
    All of these verses support my thesis. Appreciate it!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,464
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In your mind.
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    34,628
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Wait....I also thought your post supported his thesis. I missed your point.

    What were you saying with those passages?
     
Loading...