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The Identity of the Text the New Testament Autographes.

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by 37818, Aug 24, 2023.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    At the worst, the New Testament Greek text between the textual variants. At best the whole Greek New Testatament, being the discovered Greek Family 35. We actually have known mss copies of each New Testament book that are word and letter the same from different locations and different dating of copying! Remarkable evidence. [My understanding.]
     
    #1 37818, Aug 24, 2023
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2023
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  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 3:11, ". . . and with fire: . . ." reading is given in the Critical Text without note, suggesting this reading is original to Matthew without dispute. Luke 3:16 is evidence the reading without dispute is the word of God on what John said, whether original with Matthew or not. Now it is currently not regarded as part of Family 35, not identified as an original text in Matthew. The Matthew manuscript evidence being 80% omit and 20% of them include the reading. Personally I am persuaded it should be regarded as original in Matthew's account.
     
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  3. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    It is such a small, insignificant variant that most commentaries don't even mention the obvious omission.


    Matthew 3:11b


    TR WH NU βαπτίσει ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ καὶ πυρί
    “he will baptize in the Holy Spirit and fire”​

    א B C L W
    all versions​

    variant βαπτισει εν πνευματι αγιω
    “he will baptize in the Holy Spirit”​

    Majority text
    nkjvmg

    The omission might be a scribal attempt to simplify a difficult statement (how would Jesus baptize in fire?). The expression is probably a hendiadys (one thought expressed by two words); in other words, the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a fire baptism, a baptism that brings purification (see Zech 13:9; Mal 3:2).

    Philip W. Comfort, New Testament Text and Translation Commentary: Commentary on the Variant Readings of the Ancient New Testament Manuscripts and How They Relate to the Major English Translations (Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., 2008), 6.
     
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  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Typically the texts of the autographs will be the text common to book manuscripts berween known variants.

    Now of known variants, which reading is actually to be determined to be the original reading will always be on a case by case basis.
     
  5. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    In context that would be, "in Hell".

    The saved listening to John would be inundated as Jesus' church at Jerusalem, when Jesus baptized his church entity that He had founded and organized, on the Day of Pentecost. He Anointed the Most Holy place, once and for all. Daniel 9:24g.

    The lost who were listening to John would be inundated by being immersed in the fires of Hell.

    Matthew 3:7-12, in context:

    "7 "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

    8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

    9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

    10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear:
    with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

    12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

    "Fire is mentioned three times and before and after it is mentioned in vs 11, and they all have to do with, "the wrath of God to come", vs 7.
     
  6. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    This from Philip Mauro, who said this sort of like what I did, when I said, "regardless of what version you use you still have to reference back to the King James, or similar, to see what God said."

    Philip Mauro would advise checking verses that differ from the King James, with other reliable sources.

    Would that be Family 35, in you case,
    if you were to double check a verse in the original?

    ΒΥΖΑΝΤΙΝΕ GREEK TEXT OF THE NEW TESΤΑΜΕΝΤ
    /K r/ Family 35 Textform, PDF.


    (His caps) from: Philip Mauro – Preterist Archives (I am not a Preterist).

    "THE GREEK TEXT UPON WHICH IT IS BASED IS SO CORRUPT,
    THAT IT IS NOT SAFE TO ACCEPT ANY READING
    WHICH DIFFERS FROM THAT OF THE A.V.

    UNTIL THE READER HAS ASCERTAINED
    THAT THE CHANGE IN QUESTION
    IS SUPPORTED BY PREPONDERATING TESTIMONY."

    That is from Philip Mauro's book, Which Version, from 99 years ago (1924).

    To me, he's hit the nail on the head about the big controversy, and this is was 70 some odd years before Ruckman published his books on the 90s.
     
    #6 Alan Gross, Nov 26, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2023
  7. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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  8. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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