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They are saved from the foundation of the world from Gods Perspective since He declares Christ ws slain for them from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

Sorry bro, I hadn't read your post before I posted the same verse.



Sovereign Ruler of the skies
Ever gracious, ever wise
All my times are in Your hand
All events at Your command

His decree, who formed the earth
Fixed my first and second birth
Now my life to Him I owe
Where He leads me I will go

 

@Brightfame52 you wrote in post # 11 “He fully executed the Divine Purpose, did everything required that saved all for whom He died, all them which had been given Him by the Father before the foundation, not one of them shall be lost.” So in other words, as you understand it, they were saved, correct?

When I pointed out the error in that thinking you restated your position again in #17, # 20, # 26, # 29. Then you change your view to from the foundation of the world here in post # 61.

So for clarity which is it BF were people saved before the foundation of the world or are they saved when they trust in Christ Jesus? Not from God’s perspective as He being omniscient knows all that will happen. I am asking from the personal perspective, when is a person actually saved?

 

If he "being omniscient knows all that will happen" then it will happen.

 

They are saved from Gods Eternal Perspective before the world began, and they find out Gods perspective in time when they are born again by the Spirit and believe the Gospel. So one is saved before they believe.

 

I have to ask the purpose and premise of this question.

 

So you have people that do not believe in Christ Jesus saved, so by your logic all of the world is saved as most of the world has rejected Christ. Plus since the bible is clear that we are saved because we trust in Christ Jesus that means that everyone is saved. Those that do not believe by your view and those that do believe by the biblical view. Well that is unless your view is in error which it is.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Now I know that you are going to disagree but BF remember it is not me you are in disagreement with but rather it is with GOD.

I do have to ask, why do you have such a hard time accepting what the scriptures say?

 

God having foreknowledge of what man will freely do does not cause it to happen. That is just people reading into scripture what they need to support their theological view.

 

Yes we know it is the Lambs Book of Life. And we know that Christ was considered slain from the foundation of the world. And we also know that those that do not believe will not be written in the book. But this verse does not tell you when their names were written in the book only that they were at some point in time since the foundation of the world.

 

"Do men become God's sheep by believing?

"Answer. Yes and no. By His choice and purpose they are His before faith, yes eternally His by the gift of the Father; but they become His saved and actually possessed sheep at faith.

"Until faith, they are lost sheep; at and after faith, they are His saved sheep.

"Until salvation these elect sheep have the disposition of goats in rebelling against the truth; at faith they receive the docile and gentle nature of sheep.

"At faith the facts are made to agree with the ideal of His purpose."

from: OUR QUERY BOX
The Voice, Murray, Kentucky, May 1937

 

Yeah sure there were people saved before they believed in Christ, they were saved before the world began, premised on the Cross of Christ and the Eternal Purpose of God in Christ. 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

The elect were saved by Gods Purpose and Grace in Christ before the world began, then they are in their lifetime called with an Holy Calling by the Gospel , to faith

 

@Alan Gross

I would disagree with this, the answer is yes altogether, never a no. Christ possessed the Sheep prior to their believing Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

I have here is a present tense, the word echo and means:

to have i.e. own, possess

However they had not yet been called to hear and believe, that was a future tense verb., however because they were His Sheep, the fact is certain they shall hear His voice in the Gospel and believe.

Jesus no doubt had His Gentile Sheep in mind, and so Peter said Acts 15:7


And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

 

So lets go with your idea here. You have non-existent people saved before creation. Since these people are saved they are righteous and will no longer be under the judgement of God for any sins. But in other posts you have claimed that Christ died for these same people. If they are saved why would Christ have to die for them?

But the bible tells us Christ came to save the world, the sinners, the ungodly, those that did not know God. The bible also tells us that only those in Christ will be saved and you only are in Christ through faith in the risen Christ. Further we are told the gospel message is the power of God unto salvation. You know hear, believe then saved.

So the reality is BF if you were saved before the foundation of the world, as you claim, and you were not in Christ, which you could logically not be, then your salvation was sealed and determined when you were outside of Christ and whatever you call it that's not Christianity. It's something else so you cannot rely on it for your salvation. It seems you are relying on a Gnostic style election rather than biblical faith as the determining factor of your salvation. As a logical result of your view of salvation prior to creation whether or not Christ died doesn't matter as faith in Christ is no longer the means of your salvation, your election is.

You continue to ignore clear scripture that says we must believe in the risen Christ for salvation so why can you not accept this biblical truth?

 

God knowing that some will freely come to faith is not causing them to come to faith. God knowing that in the future a person will do X does not cause that person to do X. Remember He is omniscient so no surprises.
The views you have been putting forward, BF, are not biblical.

What I posted is showing you the logical consequence of your ideas. You want to claim someone is saved but then say well not really saved. Try sticking with the clear biblical text.

Since you seem to disagree with the following verses show me where they are wrong. No one was saved/elected before creation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

 

How can someone choose freely when they dont exist ? Thats a neat trick

 

Did you actually read what the bible says in the verses that I posted? If you did then that just proves that you do not have good comprehension skills.

But I agree, how could those people you say are saved before creation do that? How can non existent people have faith? Logically they cannot so your view of elect before creation is false.

BF you're the one that says people are saved before creation so I agree them having faith would be a neat trick but you seem to think they can do it. Care to explain how?

The bible is clear that one has to hear and believe before they are saved, why do you continue to deny this?

 

@Silverhair

You also deny total depravity, that man by nature is dead to God, and only evil, doesnt seek after God nor understand Him Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

So you disagree with scripture.

Which one or more of these verses promote salvation by works?

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

 

BF we have been over this verse so many times it is getting tiring. You need to start reading things in context BF. Who is Paul speaking to {hint it is Jews} he is pointing that they do not even pay attention to their own scriptures. It is hyperbole, but that seems to go over your head. You keep running to out of context verses to support your false understanding of scripture.

But lets play along with your view for a bit.

Rom 3:13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";

Now are you going to deny what this verse says or perhaps you will say that is just hyperbole? You keep tripping over the verses you post. Context is not your friend BF it just keeps showing the failed logic of your position.