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Featured God can change.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Oct 4, 2023.

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  1. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    As the title of a James M. Boice sermon says : "It's Double Or Nothing."
     
    #61 RipponRedeaux, Oct 9, 2023
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    When we are conceived we are condemned by God, and reside within the "gates of Hades." (Matthew 16:18).

    But the church can overcome those gates and transfer people from the realm of darkness into God's kingdom.

    God changes the outcome of our lives when He chooses to credit our faith as righteousness, and put us into Christ's spiritual body, then seals us with our indwelt Holy Spirit.

    God can and does change His behavior toward individuals according to His conditional covenants.
     
    #62 Van, Oct 14, 2023
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Jonah 3:10
    When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their evil way, then God relented of the disaster which He had declared He would bring on them. So He did not do it.

    1 Chronicles 21:15
    God sent an angel to ravage Jerusalem. As he was doing so, the LORD watched and relented from his judgment. He told the angel who was destroying, "That's enough! Stop now!" Now the LORD's angel was standing near the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.

    Exodus 32:14
    So the LORD relented of the harm which He said He would do to His people.

    God can and does change His behavior toward individuals or groups according to His conditional covenants.
     
    #63 Van, Oct 18, 2023
  4. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    Not only is it true that the bible declares God's steadfast righteous character and wisdom but the very fact that the invincible Creator can and did change into a man and then died and then rose from the dead with a new glorified human body which He never had before and now will have forever more, is the positive proof that God's love toward us can be trusted without question or hesitation or caveat.

    It is inanimate objects that come closest to not changing in any way. It is the stone idol that is immutable, not the living God who became a man and died for our sin.
     
    #64 CJP69, Oct 18, 2023
  5. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    Excellent!

    It should be pointed out that the word "relent" is an incorrect translation in those verses. The Hebrew is "nāḥam" and it means "repent" not "relent". The Calvinistic translators of the more modern translations simply could bring themself to put the little bump on the side of the "l" in "relent". The KJV translates the word correctly in these passages.
     
    #65 CJP69, Oct 18, 2023
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  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, God can change according to His pleasure and purpose, such as if we repent, He can relent.
     
    #66 Van, Oct 18, 2023
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    When used of a past action, then repent best captures the change, but when used of a threatened future action, then relent best captures the meaning. See verse Jonah 3:9.
     
    #67 Van, Oct 18, 2023
  8. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    No sir.

    Sorry but there can be no doubt about it. The Hebrew simply does not support relent. ""nāḥam" means to change direction and when applied to one's way of thinking it means to change your mind, the very dictionary definition of the word "repent". Relent, on the other hand, implies the stoppage of an action already in motion. If God were in the act of destroying Nineveh but then stopped doing so in response to their repentance (naham) then that would be relenting.

    Jonah 3:10 is the perfect proof of this...

    Jonah 3:10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.

    The same word "naham" is used both for what the Ninevites did and what God did. Look it up if you want. The word Naham is in there twice, I promise! In fact, it is worded that way on purpose. The Ninevites repented and so God likewise. That's the basic gist of the sentence.
     
    #68 CJP69, Oct 18, 2023
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I refer to Jonah 3:9 and you repeat Jonah 3:10. Nuff said...
     
    #69 Van, Oct 19, 2023
  10. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    To prove my case, you mean.
     
    #70 CJP69, Oct 19, 2023
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Jonah 3:9 makes clear God relents from future action and repents from past action.
     
    #71 Van, Oct 20, 2023
  12. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    Nonsense. If it's supposed to be two different words then why did the author use the same word in the original language for both parties (i.e. Nineveh naham and then God naham). Where is the need to think that it should be two different words in English? Which part of your doctrine does the word "repent" crush into powder so completely that you can't even acknowledge that this is what God's word explicitly states and not just in Jonah but in several places throughout the Old Testament.

    Now, it's your turn to, once again ignore my argument and repeat yourself as though I said nothing. Go ahead! Believe what you like. Ignore my arguments and simply repeat yourself and then when I quit paying any attention to you pretend that you've defeated me.
     
    #72 CJP69, Oct 20, 2023
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Did anyone say there were two different words? Nope so a strawman argument.
    Words with more than one meaning should be translated such that the intended meaning, rather than ambiguity, is made clear.
    Did anyone say "repent" is not the meaning God intended is some texts? Nope, so yet another strawman.

    This poster then closes with more "you, you, you" disparagement, pure twaddle.
     
    #73 Van, Oct 20, 2023
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    "God is unvarying, reliable, constant, and perpetual. God never adds or subtracts from His character and emotions. They are constant and unmoving. We should be forever grateful that God is immutable, as this provides an assurance of His love and mercy toward us."

    The above snippet copied from the internet provides an excellent hypothesis for defining the immutability of God.

    However, to move from being an understanding formulated by man, we must verify these attributes are found in scripture, rather than read into scripture.

    Numbers 23:19 (NASB)
    “God is not a man, that He would lie,
    Nor a son of man, that He would change His mind;
    Has He said, and will He not do it?
    Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

    The above clearly teaches God keeps His word and does not vary, that we can rely on His word, and that God is consistent.

    Hebrews13:8
    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever.

    Here we can add that God's character and attributes do not change over time, thus we can now support the attribute of being perpetual, thus God's attributes do not change over time. However, God does as He pleases, thus He can treat one person one way and treat another person another way or both people the same way. He can condemn one individual and bestow mercy upon another.

    God dictates His actions, rather than His past actions dictating His future actions, so He can formulate the Old Covenant and then inaugurate a New Covenant.
     
    #74 Van, Oct 20, 2023
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    When we are conceived we are condemned by God, and reside within the "gates of Hades." (Matthew 16:18).

    But God with His church's outreach can overcome those gates and transfer people from the realm of darkness into God's kingdom.

    God changes the outcome of our lives when He chooses to credit our faith as righteousness, and put us into Christ's spiritual body, then seals us with our indwelt Holy Spirit. He does not have mercy on all and He does not end up condemning all. Sometimes, if we repent, He will relent.
     
    #75 Van, Oct 20, 2023
  16. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    So repent and relent aren't two different words?

    What are you even talking about?
     
    #76 CJP69, Oct 20, 2023
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Stonewalling is the sin quo non of irrational belief.
     
    #77 Van, Oct 21, 2023
  18. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    YEah! You did!

    "When used of a past action, then repent best captures the change, but when used of a threatened future action, then relent best captures the meaning. See verse Jonah 3:9."

    There is no use of the word Naham in Hebrew that means "relent"!

    That's the whole point!

    I never implied that anyone made this argument and so it is you who are erecting straw men, not me!

    I see now that this INTENTIONALLY dishonest tactic is a favorite of yours.

    It doesn't work, you know. You aren't fooling anyone other than yourself with this literal stupidity.

    The only real response to this would be against the rules and you'd use it in a heart beat to ban me.

    Is that what you're trying?

    Just ban me if you want! Why try to bait me in this idiotically juvenile manner?
     
    #78 CJP69, Oct 23, 2023
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    As I highlighted in "red," when not taking a future action, relent best conveys the meaning.
    Many modern translations such as the NKJV translate Naham as relent in Jonah 3:9.
    Here is what you implied that I did not believe Naham means "repent" in some passages:
    Which part of your doctrine does the word "repent" crush into powder so completely that you can't even acknowledge that this is what God's word explicitly states and not just in Jonah but in several places throughout the Old Testament.​
     
    #79 Van, Oct 23, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2023
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