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Featured Satan Murdered Jesus - The Scripture and Theology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Arthur King, Oct 18, 2023.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This is not true. You are directly rejecting Scripture:

    John 8:38–44 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."


    What does the passage say?

    " you also do the things which you heard from your father"

    You directly denied this, saying they were just acting out of their own sinful nature - uninfluenced by Satan. BUT Jesus says they were doing the things which they heard from their father.

    They heard from their father, Satan, and desired to do those things Satan desired.



     
    #241 JonC, Oct 29, 2023
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    K. That’s your opinion.
     
    #242 kyredneck, Oct 29, 2023
  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Please provide a source that says the words “of your father” always refers to influence.

    You are talking about a general influence (Satan is the author of sin and death) and attempting apply it to a specific instance (the Jewish leaders being directly under the influence of Satan)

    The only person during this period under direct influence of Satan, according to scripture, is Judas.

    Peace to you
     
    #243 canadyjd, Oct 29, 2023
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am talking about those men doing the things they heard from Satan.


    John 8:38–44 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
     
    #244 JonC, Oct 30, 2023
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Wrong. That entire generation (less the remnant) was not God's people. Deuteronomy 32:5 One has to conclude that 'that generation' was put on earth at that point in time to do exactly what they did, and that was to crucify Christ.

    7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mt 3

    33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell? Mt 23

    5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation.
    20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness. Dt 32

    4 An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonah. And he left them, and departed. Mt 16

    39     But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
    43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking r
    45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12

    25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Lu 17

    24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou hold us in suspense? If thou art the Christ, tell us plainly.
    25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father`s name, these bear witness of me.
    26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Jn 10

    43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
    45 But because I say the truth, ye believe me not.
    46 Which of you convicteth me of sin? If I say truth, why do ye not believe me?
    47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8
     
    #245 kyredneck, Oct 30, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2023
  6. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    By your reasoning, Satan was the one who ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, right?
     
    #246 Scripture More Accurately, Oct 30, 2023
  7. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    Saying that someone did something that they heard from their father does not necessarily equate to holding that the father actually did the action.

    There are sinful people who only say that certain people should be killed but do not actually direct specific people to go out and kill those other people. Some who hear that terrible teaching go out and murder some of those other people. Do we go around and say that the ones who said that certain people should be killed are the ones who killed the people?

    Now, if the ones who say that certain people should be killed also directly tell specific people to go out and kill those other people, then we say that those people who said that they should be murdered also murdered the people who were killed.

    In effect, you are claiming that John 8 shows that Satan directly influenced specific people to go out and murder Jesus themselves. You have to prove that claim from Scripture.
     
    #247 Scripture More Accurately, Oct 30, 2023
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  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    :rolleyes: 'It was the LORD's will to bruise Him. HE HAS PUT HIM TO GRIEF.' 'I WILL STRIKE THE SHEPHERD.' 'NO-ONE TAKES MY LIFE FROM ME, BUT I LAY IT DOWN OF MYSELF. I HAVE POWER TO LAY IT DOWN, AND I HAVE POWER TO TAKE IT UP AGAIN. THIS COMMAND I HAVE RECEIVED FROM MY FATHER.' Believe the words of Scripture!
     
    #248 Martin Marprelate, Oct 30, 2023
  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe these Jewish leaders had a conversation with Satan about killing Jesus? Are you taking these words literally?

    peace to you
     
    #249 canadyjd, Oct 30, 2023
  10. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    No one denies the general influence of sin on people, or even the general work of Satan and his demons against God and His people.

    Only Judas had a direct influence of Satan, according to scripture.

    peace to you
     
    #250 canadyjd, Oct 30, 2023
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    John 8:38–44 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
     
    #251 JonC, Oct 30, 2023
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am taking those words to mean that Satan had influence (the argument was to the contrary).

    John 8:38 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” ."


    What were those men doing? The things they heard from Satan.

    Yet @Martin Marprelate stated that Satan was trying his best to prevent the Crucifixion, strength out denying God's Word.


    @Scripture More Accurately stated that Satan did not influence those men seeking to kill him, again denying Scripture (what they were doing is what they heard from Satan, per the Bible).



    The fact is Scripture says those men were doing the will of Satan, and were influenced by his voice (they obeyed what they heard from him). They listened to lies (that Christ was stricken of God, for example).

    Influence was there. Exactly how? I don't care. That is not my business. God says it so I believe it.


    Sorry back to our conversation -

    Do you still believe that those men who murdered Jesus were uninfluenced by Satan?

    Do you still believe that those men who murdered Jesus were not doing the desires of Satan?

    Do you still believe Jesus did not give His life freely to be murdered by children of Satan by the hands of the godless?
     
    #252 JonC, Oct 30, 2023
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I absolutely agree with that passage. You are making false accusations. I presented those passages already, affirming them to be true. You need to be more honest with your words.

    The problem is you cannot reconcile that passage with other passages so you choose the one that fits your theory and denounces the passages that do not.

    I believe it was God's will to bruise Him, to put Him to grief, AND that He lay down His own life, nobody robbed Him of it. And I believe that men influenced by Satan murdered Jesus and were doing the desires of Satan.

    ALL of Scripture is true.

    You see a contradicting in God where no contradiction exists. It is your theory, your philosophy, that is wrong - not God. All of those passages....even those passages you argue against.....are true. They make no sense to you because you have been carried away by vain philosophy.
     
    #253 JonC, Oct 30, 2023
  14. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    So, you are saying you do not take the words of scripture literally that these men did the things they “heard” from Satan? Unlike Judas, who had a direct influence from Satan to betray Jesus.

    The conversation has shifted, I see. The thread is about how “Satan murdered Jesus”, but has shifted to evil men under the direct or indirect influence of Satan murdered Jesus, to an acknowledgment that Jesus actually had a say in His own murder…

    So, you seem to agree there was an indirect influence upon these men… OK

    peace to you
     
    #254 canadyjd, Oct 30, 2023
  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I am glad to see that you are slowly modifying your position, but you are still giving glory to Satan. The wicked men who brought the Lord Jesus to the cross did not murder HIm. He specifically says so in the very verse that you quoted (John 10:17-18). What part of "no one takes [My life] from Me" do you not understand? Nor were they doing the desires of Satan; they were doing, albeit unconsciously, the will of God and glorifying His name (John 12:28 and the multiple verses in Acts and elsewhere that I have already quoted).

    Your problem is that your crackpot theory of the atonement requires Satan to murder Christ; it has to be a wicked act, when in fact the cross is the most glorious and wonderful event in history as the Bible affirms. Therefore your presuppositions force you to ignore the multiple texts that I and others have shown you many times and it is forcing you to use your position as a moderator to keep this thread open when any other thread would have been closed about a hundred posts ago.
     
    #255 Martin Marprelate, Oct 30, 2023
  16. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    It's telling that this thread has been allowed to go on this long. I have had threads where there was profitable interaction going on closed much earlier than this thread. Something seems not to be what it should be . . .
     
    #256 Scripture More Accurately, Oct 30, 2023
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  17. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. I deny the validity of your handling of that verse. I have shown that doing the things that someone has heard from someone else does not automatically entail that the one from whom they heard those things actually did those things.
     
    #257 Scripture More Accurately, Oct 30, 2023
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I have not modified my position at all.
    You simply didn't understand my post.

    Accepting Scripture is not glorifying Satan. But rejecting Scripture may be.

    You insist that Satan wanted to prevent Jesus from dying.

    But the Bible states that it was Satan who entered into Judas to betray Christ, Satan who influenced those to desire to kill Jesus, and men doing Satan's will who killed Jesus.

    The problem is not what you and I accept of God but what you reject.

    You reject God's Word as a lie, as Satanic, because you cannot reconcile Jesus giving His life l, nobody robbing Him of it, freely with God

    The problem is your theories, not God. All of Scripture is true.

    Your error is starting with tradition and theory, going to the Bible only to support your philosophy, and denouncing the remainder of God's word as demonic.

    But the problem is you. I have no issue accepting God is r His Word (all of it). I do not see the contradiction because it does not exist (it is a contradiction within your philosophy, not a contradiction with God's Word).
     
    #258 JonC, Oct 30, 2023
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  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I understand.

    I say that men listening to Satan and doing Satan's will is the same as Satan influencing those men. I support that with Jesus explanation that Satan has lied to them.

    You believe that men listening to Satan lies and seeking to do his will is not Satan influencing them.

    I question your evaluation.
     
    #259 JonC, Oct 30, 2023
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, it is not telling. Were it closed I could start another.

    But since I am participating I won't close it (that wouldn't be fair).

    I also like it open so that all who read can see, even if they disagree with my conclusions, the inconsistencies and denial of God a few have made.
     
    #260 JonC, Oct 30, 2023
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