Featured Not Closed Theology

Let's try this again.

God:
Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Silverhair:
Did you forget that the bible says we have to believe, confess and God through His grace will save us. So faith is a condition that God has set.

All the verses you quote, stand in testament against your teaching. Until you acknowledge God as the one who unconditionally saved you, you are speaking a theology not taught by God. You are speaking a salvation by legal requirement.

 

So you will not accept what the Holy Spirit inspired, got it. You say the verses I quoted stand in testament against my teaching but you have yet to show me in scripture what speaks against what I have posted. But since scripture does not speak against what I have posted I do not expect you will reply except with your philosophy.

 

@Silverhair, I have already provided verses and passages. You know this and will not acknowledge it because you only want to see humans effecting their own salvation and God being secondary to man.

You have told us that the bible says we have to believe, confess and God through His grace will save us. So faith is a condition that God has set.

You openly reject what God tells you:

But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)

God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
(Ephesians 2:4-5,8-9)

For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
(John 6:44)

Jesus replied, “I have already told you, and you don’t believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father’s name. But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand.
(John 10:25-29)

“My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you. All who are mine belong to you, and you have given them to me, so they bring me glory. “I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me through their message. “I have given them the glory you gave me, so they may be one as we are one.
(John 17:9-10,20,22)

God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. May God give you more and more grace and peace.
(1 Peter 1:2)

God is clear. Salvation is unconditional and accomplished by God alone, apart from human efforts.

Silverhair, your teaching is demonstratably graceless.

 

"God's grace was enough to overcome their natural will..."? You mean God isn't able to overcome some people's natural will?
But some people's natural will, He is able to overcome? Doesn't that limit God's ability?

 

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

We are saved by God’s grace but only those that believe are saved so we have no ability to boast as we are just meeting the condition that God has set. Hear the gospel, believe the gospel then God saves.


Joh_6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him. The Manichaeans spring upon these words, saying, that nothing lies in our own power..." John Chrysostom (387 AD)

But God tells us how we are drawn

Joh 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

And we see how God teaches & draws

Rom 1:16 ... the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes

So we see that while the gospel message is meant for all yet it is only those that respond in faith that will be saved

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

(Joh_12:32 BSB 1.2) And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”

Are you saying that only a select few are drawn. Being drawn does not mean saved but that all can be saved, no one is excluded from the offer of salvation.


Joh 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
Joh 17:10 "And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

John 17:6-19 is referring to disciples that have stayed true to Christ Jesus.
“For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.” John 17:8

Joh 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
Joh 17:21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Joh 17:22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

This is where Christ prayed for all those that will believe through the gospel message for we know that not all those that hear the gospel message will believe it. Many will reject the truth presented to them.

1Pe 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

This foreknowledge includes prior knowledge of our response to the gospel, knowing who will trust in Christ Jesus does not cause them to trust in Christ Jesus. Are you saying that God causes whatever He foreknows?

 

That is a very good point. If God only overcomes some people's will with saving grace then he either can't or won't do this with everyone. If he won't then there is some degree of sovereignty in operation, called choosing or election. If he can't then it really is left up to you and it does limit God's ability. I think there are verses that seem to say both. And I'm not the only one. And this is only the case if you believe something is wrong with mans' will in the first place.

A whole other group of people believe man's will is either totally free or it is not so bad that man cannot make a rational decision for Christ based on the information contained in the gospel message. I think there are verses that seem to indicate that too, at least by themselves.

 

I have bolded what you are adding, which the text never states.

Indeed we see.
Verse 44 comes first. God draws then people hear and believe. The text shows you your error.

The gospel of salvation is only for those who believe. Who is it that believe? Those whm God makes alive, even while they were dead.

Again, this verse goes against your teaching.

This, of all verses, shows how little regard you have for context. You literally cut the sentence in half, let alone the passage. Careful study of Ephesians 1 shows you that you are not understanding what God is telling you. In verses 3 and 4 we see that we have been chosen and adopted before the world began. Thus, God does the work and we respond in belief.

I haven't commented on this verse.
Are you, here, arguing for universalism?

Indeed, as Jesus tells you in John 6, those not given to Jesus by God the Father will not believe.

If God is not the cause of our salvation, then the only cause is...yourself. You become the cause of your salvation and God becomes the obligated party who is effected.

Silverhair, the Bible stands opposed to your teaching and you will not acknowledge that you are fighting back against God's word and declaring yourself as the ruler.

No one can help you when you think so highly of yourself.

 

@taisto I have pointed you to the truth through scripture but you just ignore it or twist it to fit with your philosophy. Perhaps God will open your eyes someday or perhaps you will just come to realize that yours was, as Calvin said, an evanescent faith.

 

Indeed, God allows sinners to keep sinning and go to hell. He lets this world self-destruct in its sin, being slaves to sin.

If God does not step in and choose to redeem those whom he chose from before the foundation of the world, then the world would drift quickly into hell.

Closed theology doesn't deny that sinners will always choose to openly and freely sin.

 

Maybe He doesn’t overcome wills. Maybe He meant “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved…” and all can but all won’t, so the responsibility is on everyone, not Him. He reconciled us on His part through Christ now it’s up to us to be reconciled to Him. We are holding back, refusing reconciliation—He’s not.

Thanks for the reply.

 

I don't have any problem with that. The problem is, as you said,"and all can but all won't, so the responsibility is on everyone, not Him." So without some action on God's part no one will be saved - and it's because they won't.
"When men are truly willing to come to Christ they are freely willing. It is not that they are forced and driven by threatenings; but they are willing to come, and choose to come without being driven". Would you agree with that?
"But natural men have no such free willingness; but on the contrary have an aversion. And the ground of it is that which we have heard,viz. That they are enemies to God. Their having such a reining enmity against God, makes them obstinately refuse to come to Christ".

Those quotes are from Jonathan Edwards and as he points out, the problem is indeed that they won't. If the Holy Spirit doesn't act on a person will they ever choose to come to Christ? The only thing wrong with your setup above is that it assumes men have a neutral will that is unaffected by our sinfulness and that the only determining factor in what we do is our own decision. I just think there is more to it than than. If you pray for someone to get saved who has heard the gospel then what are you praying for if not that their will be affected by the Holy Spirit?

 

@DaveXR650 but that what I have been saying all along. The Holy Spirit convicts the whole world, we have creation and the gospel message and they all point to God. But it is still the person that has to make that choice. That is what the bible says, man has a God given free will and God will hold him responsible for how he uses it.

You say the problem is that we are enemies of God, true, but even human enemies can reconcile so why do you think it is any different for us and God? The evidence shows that it has happened millions of times. Look at Paul, Cornelius some of the Pharisees or closer to home look in a mirror.

The Holy Spirit through Paul told us we could and should be reconciled to God, that is unless you think God is being disingenuous?
2Co_5:20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.
Rom_5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

Paul answers #1 in Romans 9. Humans always, 100% of the time, willfully seek themselves as ruler of their lives and they attempt to cast God down.
Paul answers #2 in Romans 10. How could we know we are chosen if we do not hear the voice of Jesus through the preaching of God's word?

The principle of "already, but not yet" is here applied.

Christ could save the world, universally, at his decision. But, the Bible tells us that God does not choose to save everyone (John 6, John 10, John 17). This is God's Sovereign right as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
We who were chosen before the foundation of the world were still dead in our sins. God needed to make us alive with Christ. (Ephesians 2:1-9). Silverhair, why do you repeatedly ignore what God has revealed to you in scripture?

The view I present is what God teaches in scripture, therefore, your thinking it is wrong thus condemns you.
You once again make man the center of attention, lifting man up as the cause of his own salvation. Such a teaching is never presented by God, but you force it into the Bible and then cherry pick verses, out of context, to imagine you have a biblical argument.

You teach salvation apart from grace. We will never be in agreement. We will always stand opposed until you bend your knee to the King and acknowledge that He is the sole cause of your salvation.