Featured Why Don't Modern Denominations Understand The Rapture

You are in it with me, brother. Welcome to the rodeo.

Let's see. I provided 1 Corinthians 15 and showed you the connection to Matthew 24, yet you aren't getting it.
If God's word won't teach you, how can anyone help you? You sure you want to talk about maturity?

So, you have never been to a church. You have never sat under any pastor. You live in complete isolation in a monastery, except for your foray to the Internet Baptist Board. Is that what you'd have us believe? No one has ever taught you anything in all the years of your life. Yet, you say modern denominations don't get the rapture. Hmmm... I gotta say boloney to that claim. No one comes up with a pre-trib rapture on their own as they read the Bible.

So, now you can only read the original manuscripts, written by the original author? Anything else is not God's words? Do you read what you write?

Did Luke see Jesus after he rose from the dead? He wrote at least two books. How about the unknown writer of Hebrews?

I assume you don't accept the Old Testament as "this age." How did you learn this? What passage in the New Testament tells you this?

There are 66 books in the Canon that I believe are God's word, given to us.

Please tell me what other books I claim as God's inspired word. You tell me that I have more. What are they. I am fascinated by your accusation.

Out of curiosity, do you think God thinks in King James English? Do you think making unfounded accusations about God's redeemed child is "thinking like God"?

Forgive me for coming to this conclusion, but are you telling me that I am unsaved?
Must all Christians hold a futurist interpretation of the end times and only read the KJV? Would all others be unsaved?

Why did the writer to the Hebrews say this to his listeners who were believers?
(Hebrews 5:11-14)
There is much more we would like to say about this, but it is difficult to explain, especially since you are spiritually dull and don’t seem to listen. You have been believers so long now that you ought to be teaching others. Instead, you need someone to teach you again the basic things about God’s word. You are like babies who need milk and cannot eat solid food. For someone who lives on milk is still an infant and doesn’t know how to do what is right. Solid food is for those who are mature, who through training have the skill to recognize the difference between right and wrong.

Sure I can.
(1 Corinthians 15:1-7)
Let me now remind you, dear brothers and sisters, of the Good News I preached to you before. You welcomed it then, and you still stand firm in it. It is this Good News that saves you if you continue to believe the message I told you—unless, of course, you believed something that was never true in the first place. I passed on to you what was most important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our sins, just as the Scriptures said. He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said. He was seen by Peter and then by the Twelve. After that, he was seen by more than 500 of his followers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died. Then he was seen by James and later by all the apostles.

Have you ever considered that you are not a teacher?

Well, I guess we can see if other Amillennialists here at the BB think I have misspoken regarding God's work in caring for us with the tribulation we presently are all going through. I think @canadyjd and perhaps @KenH and maybe @kyredneck may hold similar views. Am I representing amillenialism adequately or have I grossly missed the mark?

 

I have not been reading this thread as I am quite content with what God told His elect about the new heavens and new earth in 2 Peter 3:10-13:

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

In the past I have looked at the other major ideas besides amillennialism - historic premillennialism, dispensational premillennialism, and postmillennialism - and came back to William Hendriksen's More Than Conquerors (Hendricksen-W-More_Than_Conquerors_-1940.pdf (tn-biblecollege.edu) ) as being a commentary on the book of Revelation that is consistent with the Bible taken as a whole.

Since my name was mentioned I thought I should post a reply and now I bid this thread adieu.

 

What are we supposed to compare this time to in Revelation 20 to give us a reason to think it is symbolic time?

In Daniel 9, those in the OT where given a period of 70 sets of 7 days or 70 sets of 7 years. The term week meaning a set of 7. That is more symbolic than just stating 490 years. Yet most claim 70 weeks is 490 years. If Daniel had written 490 years would people just brush those years off as mere symbols like they do to the words, "a thousand years"?

The term Day of the Lord can also be symbolic and not a literal 24 hour day. We can see Peter comparing a day in 2 Peter 3 to a thousand years. Which is the symbolic period of time; the term "day" or the term "thousand years"?

Is God longsuffering by existing for a thousand years every 24 hour day? Or is God longsuffering so each thousand years is like a day to Him. Is God longsuffering for letting humans live in sin for 6,000 years? Would we be made to suffer if we had to live even a thousand years in God's perfect will?

There is no reason to force this thousand year period into a symbolic thought. There is no reason to say it is symbolic like everything else in Revelation. Because not everything else is symbolic in the book. There are both literal points and symbolism, and it should not be that difficult to discern what is what. 42 months is mentioned in the book. Most accept it is 42 months. 1260 days are mentioned. Most accept 1260 days. Most do not find the need to call those amounts symbolic. 3.5 days can be found. 5 months can be found. So saying that this period of a thousand years has to be symbolic but the other time frames do not, seems disingenuous.

There was nothing in the NT that even implied we would still be waiting 1900 years later. Not even this 1,000 years mentioned in Revelation 20. John never said Jesus would return at the end of a thousand years, nor at the end of a symbolic thousand years. No one knew. No one set dates. They all talked about the return, that it was soon and all expected it in their lifetimes. So why turn this chapter into some prophetic time setting period stating the return would be after a symbolic 1,000 years? Or why claim we should now look back as if Revelation 20 has covered the last 1993 years? The only thing that should make sense is that there is a future thousand years between a return and the NHNE as John wrote.

 

JD731, thanks for the reply. You didn't tell me anything I didn't already know. I have my walk with the Lord Jesus and
how I can fail him miserably and have afflictions and trials but yet He is so GOOD. Blessings beyond measure.
When God does the work of regeneration in the sinful wicked heart, it brings great joy and cheer to him.
After that the truth just burns inside of you. Yes, I also believe in earnestly contending for the faith once given to the saints.
As for the topic of the rapture as well as other topics, I may very well be a "babe in Christ". Think what you may. I not here to see how many
debates I can win, or even insist on being right or have the last word. Thanks

 

The Second Coming is between Israel becoming a nation and the time of Jacob's trouble.

Since you seem to correct the Book of Revelation with Matthew 24, have you ever thought of leaving Revelation alone, and viewing Matthew 24 as a Hebrew thought structure?

Matthew puts the order exactly opposite of what John wrote in the book of Revelation. No author in the NT declared a "Second Coming". That term is just a construct comparing the first coming with a second coming. If one has to find those words in Scripture there is never going to be a Second Coming like there is not found the word "trinity" in Scripture.

Did Jesus leave earth at any point in His earthly ministry to go someplace and come back? If He did was it still a first coming or second and third coming? People seem to deny that the Second Coming could also involve several times Jesus comes and goes, but the period of the Second Coming does not make a 5th and 6th Coming. That is an excuse saying that then there would be a third or fourth coming.

Yes, Jesus left earth for 3 days and then came back for a few hours, and then told Mary He was going to ascend to heaven and would return that same day. So saying every mention of a return is the Second Coming is not what Scripture is actually saying. But if you are stuck in your own bias and agree with the majority of rather false teachers, that millions accept without any question, because they never read God's Word, then that bias is not accepting the entire Word of God.

The Second Coming is not going to be stated as obvious, and certainly not after a known event, so Satan will be as prepared as the rest of you all. Nothing any human can do, can force the Second Coming to happen. Even in Zechariah 14, the Second Coming is not forced by human hands.

Having said all that, the only event that may give away the Second Coming is if 2 billion humans suddenly were killed in a rather short period of time. And even that is not the Great Tribulation, because 6 billion people will be affected during the final harvest. And that is why this period is called the greatest trouble ever. The final harvest is what people call the great tribulation. And Jesus is on the earth with His angels for this final harvest. Matthew 13:36-43 and Matthew 25:31 are explicit in placing Jesus and the angels on the earth. Neither are called parables, but the actual explanation of the parables presented.

 

Please do not bid adieu.

I agree with you concerning 2 Peter 3:10-13 however let me ask; Is what is written in 1 Thes 5:1-11 relative to what is written in 1 Thes 4:13-18? Is the "rapture," relative to the day of the Lord? Look at the words in V's 10 & 11 of chap 5 how similar to V's 15 & 18 of chap 4.

It appears to me the beginning of the day of the Lord is 1 Thes 4:13 - 18 With the end of the day of the Lord being 2 Peter 3:10 - 13. One thousand years 2 Peter 3:8 followed by the new heavens and new earth.

Does not Rev 20 say the very same thing followed by, Rev 21, 22 the new heavens and new earth?

Is there any more, "fervent heat," than the lake of fire?

 

Does anyone deny a meeting of saints in the air upon Jesus return (a rapture)? I don't see that as an issue. The issue is whether the saints are removed before tribulation happens.
Does 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 teach a pre-trib rapture? I don't see anything that indicates that to be true.

And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died. We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. So encourage each other with these words.

 

Are the events of Revelation 6:1-17 not happening or have been happening for the past 2000 years?

As I watched, the Lamb broke the first of the seven seals on the scroll. Then I heard one of the four living beings say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” I looked up and saw a white horse standing there. Its rider carried a bow, and a crown was placed on his head. He rode out to win many battles and gain the victory. When the Lamb broke the second seal, I heard the second living being say, “Come!” Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere. When the Lamb broke the third seal, I heard the third living being say, “Come!” I looked up and saw a black horse, and its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard a voice from among the four living beings say, “A loaf of wheat bread or three loaves of barley will cost a day’s pay. And don’t waste the olive oil and wine.” When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the fourth living being say, “Come!” I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green. Its rider was named Death, and his companion was the Grave. These two were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals. When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony. They shouted to the Lord and said, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you judge the people who belong to this world and avenge our blood for what they have done to us?” Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters—their fellow servants of Jesus who were to be martyred—had joined them. I watched as the Lamb broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became as dark as black cloth, and the moon became as red as blood. Then the stars of the sky fell to the earth like green figs falling from a tree shaken by a strong wind. The sky was rolled up like a scroll, and all of the mountains and islands were moved from their places. Then everyone—the kings of the earth, the rulers, the generals, the wealthy, the powerful, and every slave and free person—all hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they cried to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to survive?”

These things have been happening and will continue to happen until Jesus returns.

 

You see, the problem is that, speaking for myself, I have never been through the second return of Christ when He replaces this present heavens and earth with the new heavens and the new earth.

I also see that the the teachers of the law of Moses at the time of Christ's incarnation on this earth, despite their deep study of the Old Testament Scriptures, badly misunderstood what would the first coming of Christ would be like, even the apostles of Christ, after being with Him for around 3 years, had problems with understanding what would happen.

Therefore, other than understanding that when Christ returns that He will remove this present heavens and earth and replace it with the new heavens and the new earth wherein dwells righteousness(which I greatly long for), I think to go beyond this and to start saying this is going to happen and that is going to happen and the other thing is going to happen in great detail, is to engage is mere speculation.

Just let me say that concerning one passage, Revelation 20:1-10, I find interesting pages 184-195 in Hendriksen's commentary that I linked to in post #83.

 

Did the arrival of the Day of the Lord take 2,000 years?

Have things been constantly all consumed by fire over and over again?

That is like saying Jesus has been constantly dying on the Cross for 2,000 years in preparation for the Second Coming.

One cannot spread the first coming into an indefinite period of time. Nor should one force the Second Coming over an indefinite period of time.

The trouble experienced by the church ends immediately with the removal of the church. Neither the church nor the church's trouble extend past the removal of the church, and continues into the final harvest of billions of humanity. The dead simply don't vanish, nor do they all physically die at the Second Coming. The final harvest is the end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, but not the church. The church has the second birth and is already in a state of life, even in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. But the Second Coming changes those alive.

What has been ongoing that many put to the last minute is the change to those in Christ. The church has already left their graves, because the church was never buried. Jesus said that the dead bury their dead. But those in Christ do not even taste death. Those in Christ already serving God day and night in that heavenly temple don't come out of their graves. They come with Jesus from heaven. They have already risen from death.

Your translation contradicts itself. Since they are coming with Jesus, they cannot be coming out of their graves to meet Jesus at the same time. Those that Jesus brings with Him are gathered from across Paradise, just like those gathered from across the earth. All meet in the middle in the air between Paradise and the surface of the earth.

So no redeemed soul needs a physical body to come out of the ground. They have had the same physical permanent incorruptible body Jesus always had, once the OT redeemed were removed from Abraham's bosom.

Not sure why one would think Jesus can have a physical body, but no one else can have one.

That body was given to them by God, so not the body handed down from Adam, same as Jesus.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." 2 Corinthians 5:1

Those in Christ have been rising first from the dead, consistently since the Cross. They have been putting on that permanent incorruptible physical body. They will be gathered from Paradise and come with Jesus to the same spot those raptured from earth arrive at.

But only Jesus and the angels complete the process to the Mount of Olives. Jesus did not leave with people in Acts 1, nor will He return with them.

Jesus did not appear one day, was placed on a Cross within 12 hours, died and rose again 12 hours later and then left earth. Yet that is how some claim the Second Coming has to happen. Jesus is the 70th week. 3.5 years as Messiah and 3.5 years as the Prince to come. The final harvest represents that second 3.5 years or what is left of it.

"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

The longer the Second Coming does not happen, the shorter those 3.5 years become. Jesus does not leave after the Second Coming to make time shorter. God holds back the Second Coming. It is the elect who are given more time to make a decision to follow Christ through the Holy Spirit. But those 3.5 years are not indefinite and stretched out over time. They are as firm as the 3.5 years in the first century.

The Seals, the Trumpets, and the Thunders cover this 3.5 year span. Not that they dole out God's punishment, judgment, and wrath upon all equally. Jesus is personally involved in the final harvest, because that is what He explicitly said. Salvation by faith is removed. Jesus chooses who is redeemed and who is not redeemed. The 144k are chosen by God, and sealed by an angel. It is not their choice, but God's. The wheat is seed sown directly by Jesus. The sheep are chosen directly by Jesus.

Theology teaches the sheep and the wheat are determined prior to the Second Coming. That is not how the final harvest works according to Scripture.

 

The Day of the Lord has not been fulfilled. It wasn't completed in AD 70.

Jesus left in the clouds. His return has not come. (I have no idea what your talking about regarding Jesus dying over and over again. Read Hebrews). Jesus tells you that his return is delayed (Matthew 24 and Matthew 25) but when He returns it will be suddenly, like a thief who comes at night with no warning. He tells you that this sudden return will be very evident, like lightning and thunder. We are told that the moment the last of the elect come to faith, Jesus will return and judge the world (2 Peter 3).

The 1420 days (3.5 years) is not literal. It expresses a fixed amount that is finite. The 144,000 is the whole of Israel, the Church. John is employing gematria in the numbers, not literalism.

The wheat (sheep) and tares (goats) are together. It is at the end that the angels separate them by God's decree and Jesus returns. The Great White Throne is that separation. John is telling you what he sees in Revelation. He isn't giving you a linear timeline. He's telling you what he sees and he keeps cycling back from panel to panel. There are 7 images he keeps seeing and sharing with us in deeper looks. It is a beautifully written painted book. See it for what it is. Stop trying to create a linear timeline. The book doesn't work that way.

 

What else in Revelation is clearly 100% literal?

“It was Sunday (the Lords Day) when John had his vision” is the only 100% literal item I can find in Revelation until people start to claim that the last few chapters are 100% literal [the Millennial Kingdom, the Battle of Armageddon, the New Jerusalem]. I am skeptical that John so abruptly changes literary TYPOLOGIES with no real notification in the text. There are still symbolic visions interspersed among the so-called literal parts.

 

Thanks for posting for i felt you did not want to debate on this. I read pages 184-195. I would just like to point out a couple of things and we can discuss or not.

Acts 2:31 YLT having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again (resurrection) of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Acts 2:31 NKJV “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

What two things did David, being a prophet, speak of concerning Christ relative to the resurrection out of the dead?

? Because of the resurrection the soul of Christ was not forsaken to Hades and/nor did the flesh of him see corruption?
Souls are resurrected out of the realm of the dead, Hades. Flesh bodies will be resurrected out of the dead, incorruptible.

Yes or no?

Relative to pages 184-195

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded (therefore dead) because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;

How do the dead souls, these beheaded souls (people) live? It even says this is the first resurrection.

I also do not believe the inhabited earth hasn't and isn't being deceived by Satan since Jesus died and was raised out of the dead.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I do not believe he is bound today.

 

@percho, I disagree with your last sentence:
"I do not believe he (Satan) is bound today."

If Satan were not bound, the church would be under full persecution on a worldwide scale. But, like with Job, Satan is not being allowed to fully attack the Church, thus he is bound. In Revelation 12 we see the woman (the Church) is being protected in the wilderness from the Dragon. This protection has bound Satan from his full wrath on the Church. But, near the end, Satan will be allowed to attack the Church like he was able to attack Job. This shows the short time after the 1000 years where Satan deceives all the nations. This is the time of "Har-meggedon", when the nations attack the Mount of Assembly, the Church, in full force. It is the time when Jesus returns and destroys all those who oppose him, the judgment takes place, and the bride comes to the wedding feast.

Of course, you don't have to hold my view. I simply disagree with your statement.

Blessings to you.

 

To the OP... Why don't modern denominations understand the rapture?... I wouldn't call our church a modern denomination, but we called it a Resurrection!!!... Brother Glen

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

10 I was in the Spirit on the day of the Lord, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Rev 1