• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

What's going on there? I was Wonderin about C.), below. Any Clue?

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
Alan's Note: this is one example that shows us what God's Word looks like, from the standpoint of God's Words having been faithfully and consistently Preserved, as God Promised He would accomplish.

Just using the first examples from hundreds in the New Testament,
here is A.) the consistency of the versions in the line of Preservation:

Matthew 1:25

(KJV)
And knew her not
till she had brought forth her firstborn son:
and he called his name JESUS.

(1611 KJV) And knewe her not,
till shee had brought forth her first borne sonne,
and he called his name Iesus.

(1587 Geneva Bible) But he knew her not,
til she had broght forth her first borne sonne,
& he called his name Iesus.

(1526 Tyndale) and knewe her not tyll
she had brought forth hir fyrst sonne
and called hys name Iesus.

And B.) The consistency of the change from the Preserved text,
contained in all modern bibles; omitting firstborn.

(1901 ASV) and knew her not till she had brought forth a son:
and he called his name JESUS.

(CEB) But he didn’t have sexual relations with her
until she gave birth to a son. Joseph called him Jesus.

(CEV) But they did not sleep together before her baby was born.
Then Joseph named him Jesus.

(ERV) But Joseph did not have sexual relations with her
until her son was born. And he named him Jesus.

(ESV) but knew her not until she had given birth to a son.
And he called his name Jesus.

(GNB) But he had no sexual relations with her
before she gave birth to her son. And Joseph named him Jesus.

(HCSB) but did not know her intimately
until she gave birth to a son. And he named Him Jesus.

(NASB) But he had no union with her
until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

(NIV) But he had no union with her
until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

(RSV) but knew her not
until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus.

(NRSV) but had no marital relations with her
until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus.

(NAB-Roman Catholic) He had no relations with her
until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.

(NWT-Jehovah’s Witness) But he had no intercourse with her
until she gave birth to a son; and he called his name Jesus.

then seriously, C.) While the modern bibles are consistent
in making a change from the KJV, this change,
among hundreds of others,

now agree more with the NSB Roman Catholic
and The Jehovah's Witnesses' NWT New World Translation,
than with the KJV and previous English versions.


What's going on there?

"Affected Teaching

"The Greek word for “firstborn” is omitted in both (B) and (Aleph).

"By removing this word in the modern versions, it endorses the
Roman Catholic doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary.

"The word “
firstborn” automatically indicates that Mary did have other children and the Bible tells us that she did in the following:

(Mark 6:2-3 KJV) "And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished,

"saying, From whence hath this
man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?

"And they were offended at him."


"By removing the word “firstborn” it can also set up erroneous beliefs that Mary had children before she had Jesus.

"That word “
firstborn” is pivotal to the doctrine of the Virgin Birth.

"The removal of this word is a serious breach of truth and can lead to the denial of the Virgin Birth of Christ.

"If Christ was not born of a Virgin, then we will still be in our sins and bound for Hell.

"The modern versions, along with
the Jehovah’s Witness version, all agree with the Roman Catholic Institution’s teaching that Mary was a perpetual Virgin.

"For someone to say that the modern versions do not stem from
Roman Catholic Manuscripts is willful denial of the truth, keep in mind the two manuscripts which omit “Firstborn.”

"The two are Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, both manuscripts were in the hands of the Roman Church, yet have become the primary manuscripts underlying the modern versions."


 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
"Firstborn" probably made it in to later manuscripts because it is implied in the text.
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
then seriously, C.) While the modern bibles are consistent
in making a change from the KJV

Here these are;

Textus Receptus - Traditional Text
kai ouk eginwsken authn ewV ou eteken ton uion authV ton prwtotokon kai ekalesen to onoma autou ihsoun

Hort-Westcott - Critical Text
kai ouk eginwsken authn ewV [ou] eteken uion kai ekalesen to onoma autou ihsoun

C********d Manuscripts
This verse is c********d in the following manuscripts:
Aleph 01 - Sinaiticus - Nineteenth Century Counterfeit
B 03 - Vaticanus - Fourth century
1 (Minuscule) - Seventh century
13 (Minuscule) - Eighth century
33 (Minuscule) - Ninth Century
071 - Fifth/Sixth century

Manuscripts which agree with the Textus Receptus for this verse
Byzantine Text (450-1450 A.D.)
C 04 - Ephraemi Rescriptus - Fifth century
D 05 - Bezae Cantabrigiensis - Fifth century
K 017 - Ninth century
W 032 - Fourth/fifth century
Delta 037 - Ninth century
PI-041 - Ninth century
28 (Minuscule) - Eleventh century
565 - (Minuscule) - Ninth century
700 - (Minuscule) Eleventh century
892 - (Minuscule) - Ninth century
1010 - (Minuscule) - Twelfth Century
1079 - (minuscule) - Tenth Century
1241 - (Minuscule) - Twelfth century

Published Critical Greek Texts with C********s
Omit “her firstborn”

Lachmann, Karl - 1842
Tischendorf, Constantine - 1869
Tregelles, Samuel - 1857
Alford, Henry - 1849 revised in 1871
Westcott and Hort - 1881
Weiss, Bernhard - 1894
Nestle - 1927 as revised in seventeenth edition in 1941
Nestle-Aland - 1979 - Twenty Sixth Edition
Nestle-Aland - 1993 - Twenty Seventh Edition
United Bible Societies - 1983 - Fourth Edition
Von Soden, Freiherr - 1902
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What's going on there?

What's going on here with this applying of different measures/standards to other English Bibles while refusing to apply the same measures/standards to the textual criticism decisions involved in the making of the varying Textus Receptus editions and in the making of the KJV?

Does every reading followed in the KJV actually agree with 95% of all available Greek NT manuscripts?

What's going on with the fact that the KJV follows a few readings that were introduced into the printed Textus Receptus editions that are found in no known preserved Greek NT manuscripts?

The Greek NT manuscripts that underlie the varying TR editions differ in whether or not they include the following whole verses: Mark 11:26, Luke 17:36, Acts 8:37, 1 John 5:7. The first two printed TR editions by Erasmus did not have Mark 11:26, Luke 17:36, 1 John 5:7, and Revelation 21:26. Scrivener maintained that Acts 15:34 is omitted by several manuscripts including over fifty cursives and that “Erasmus inserted it in his editions from the margin of Codex 4” (Introduction, Vol. II, p. 373).

Some other significant differences in TR editions are found involving clauses and phrases at Mark 15:3c, John 8:6c, John 8:9b, John 8:59c, John 19:38c, James 4:6b, 1 John 2:23b, Revelation 5:11b, Revelation 18:23a, and Revelation 21:26.

In the 1550 Greek text edition by Stephanus, over 2,000 differences are indicated in the textual marginal notes from only fifteen Greek manuscripts and the printed Complutensian edition.

What's going on there with KJV-only avoiding of the sound evidence that indicates that the KJV may follow over 1,000 readings that are found in less than 50% of available Greek NT manuscripts?
 
Top