Two-fold curse of Genesis 3:16

taisto · Dec 17, 2023

(Genesis 3:16)

Then he said to the woman, “I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth. And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you.”

Curse on woman: Pain in child birth and the desire to rule over a man.

Curse on man: The abusive rule over woman.

Both are the effect of sin.

Men, in their sin nature tend toward being abusive. We see this awful tendency in the world and we see it in the church.
Paul specifically tells the women in the church to submit to their husbands because of the curse in Genesis 3:16.

Paul specifically tells the men in the church to "Love their wives" because of the curse in Genesis 3:16. Paul was very aware of abusive husbands who treated their wives like secondary people who could be abused and mistreated. Genesis 3:16 tells us that men, because of the curse, would be abusive. Paul is telling me in the church that they need to put to death their natural tendencies to be abusive and instead, by the power of Christ, love their wives.

I have found that many men in the church quote Genesis 3:16 to their wives, but never quote it to themselves so that they will stop being abusive to their wives.

JonC · Dec 17, 2023

How do you get the abusive rule over woman from that verse?

taisto · Dec 17, 2023

JonC said:
How do you get the abusive rule over woman from that verse?

RULE over them is speaking of the curse that men would now act as dominators and authoritarians over women.
In the garden, Adam led and Eve helped in the task.
Now, men rule and dominate over women while women want to rule over men.
There is a two-fold curse in Genesis 3:16, but men ignore the curse that is upon them and instead they point to it as though it was a complement to them.
Paul looks at this curse and tells me in the church that they need to live their wives, not dominate them.

JonC · Dec 17, 2023

taisto said:
RULE over them is speaking of the curse that men would now act as dominators and authoritarians over women.
In the garden, Adam led and Eve helped in the task.
Now, men rule and dominate over women while women want to rule over men.
There is a two-fold curse in Genesis 3:16, but men ignore the curse that is upon them and instead they point to it as though it was a complement to them.
Paul looks at this curse and tells me in the church that they need to live their wives, not dominate them.

Thanks. I was unaware of that interpretation of "rule over them".

I agree that men are to love their wives.

I am not sure that Paul saying men are the head of their wife as Christ is of the Church is meant to be taken as a curse. I always viewed the husband having authority over the wife as establishing a family structure that pointed to Christ having authority over the church - not a hostile type of rule but one in love, protection, and care - the one with authority looking after the best interests of the one over whom he has authority.

But it is an interesting interpretation.

Deacon · Dec 17, 2023

There are some significant textual concerns in this passage.

The English Standard Version translates Genesis 3:16 in a way that introduces some uncertainty about your conclusions.

Teaching with uncertainty or some concern should not be firmly established unless they can be well supported by other portions of Scripture.

Genesis 3:16 (ESV)

To the woman he said,

“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;

in pain you shall bring forth children.

Your desire shall be contrary(*note) to your husband,

but he shall rule over you.”

* note - or shall be toward (see 4:7)

The NET Bible also displays differences.

Genesis 3:16 (NET 2nd ed.)

To the woman he said,

“I will greatly increase your labor pains;
with pain you will give birth to children.
You will want to control your husband, *tn(1)
but he will dominate *tn(2) you.”

The NET Bible Second Edition 2019

*tn(1) Heb “and toward your husband [will be] your desire.” The nominal sentence does not have a verb; a future verb must be supplied, because the focus of the oracle is on the future struggle. The precise meaning of the noun תְּשׁוּקָה (téshuqah, “desire”) is debated. Many interpreters conclude that it refers to sexual desire here, because the subject of the passage is the relationship between a wife and her husband, and because the word is used in a romantic sense in Song 7:11 HT (7:10 ET). However, this interpretation makes little sense in Gen 3:16. First, it does not fit well with the assertion “he will dominate you.” Second, it implies that sexual desire was not part of the original creation, even though the man and the woman were told to multiply. And third, it ignores the usage of the word in Gen 4:7 where it refers to sin’s desire to control and dominate Cain. (Even in Song of Songs it carries the basic idea of “control,” for it describes the young man’s desire to “have his way sexually” with the young woman.) In Gen 3:16 the Lord announces a struggle, a conflict between the man and the woman. She will desire to control him, but he will dominate her instead. This interpretation also fits the tone of the passage, which is a judgment oracle. See further Susan T. Foh, “What is the Woman’s Desire?” WTJ 37 (1975): 376–83. [link]

*tn(2) The Hebrew verb מָשַׁל (mashal) means “to rule over,” but in a way that emphasizes powerful control, domination, or mastery. This also is part of the baser human nature. The translation assumes the imperfect verb form has an objective/indicative sense here. Another option is to understand it as having a modal, desiderative nuance, “but he will want to dominate you.” In this case, the Lord simply announces the struggle without indicating who will emerge victorious.
Biblical Studies Press, The NET Bible, Second Edition. (Denmark: Thomas Nelson, 2019).

Rob

taisto · Dec 17, 2023

Thank you deacon.

I think your post shows the effects of sin on both genders. My observation of spousal abuse inside and outside of Christianity leads me to understand Genesis 3:16 to be declaring that man would tend toward being abusive and woman would try to counter this abuse through deceptive manipulation to gain control. In both genders, then, there is evil lurking.

Paul's call to both women and men is to clarify how they should live in relationship to one another now that God is working in them to restore the garden. Women should cease fighting via deception and Men should cease fighting by dominance. Humility and Love should win out.

JonC · Dec 17, 2023

It may help to view other instances where the word is used.

Genesis 45:25–26 Then they went up from Egypt, and came to the land of Canaan to their father Jacob. They told him, saying, “Joseph is still alive, and indeed he is ruler over all the land of Egypt.” But he was stunned, for he did not believe them.

I am not sure that the word being an imperative necessitates a negative aspect.

It may. I just don't see Genesis 3:16 as a curse on man (partly because it is God's words to Eve rather than Adam).

Alan Gross · Dec 17, 2023

taisto said:
And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you.”

Snip

This is not a curse by God in the Bible;

taisto said:
Curse on woman: Pain in child birth and the desire to rule over a man.

Nothing there to do with a woman having had a desire to rule over a man.

*"rather this is to be understood of her being solely at the will and pleasure of her husband; that whatever she desired should be referred to him, whether she should have her desire or not, or the thing she desired; it should be liable to be controlled by his will, which must determine it, and to which she must be subject,"
..

This is not a curse of God in the Bible;

taisto said:
Curse on man: The abusive rule over woman.

God instructed men to abuse women? in the process of ruling over them?

*"and he shall rule over thee, with less kindness and gentleness, with more rigour and strictness:

"it looks as if before the transgression there was a greater equality between the man and the woman, or man did not exercise the authority over the woman he afterwards did,

"or the subjection of her to him was more pleasant and agreeable than now it would be; and this was her chastisement,"

"because she did not ask advice of her husband about eating the fruit, but did it of herself, without his will and consent, and tempted him to do the same."
...

JonC said:
New How do you get the abusive rule over woman from that verse?

From the will of man, to adulterate the meaning of God's Word.

Show me a man that will say, "God instructed, wrote, judged, encouraged, suggested, implied, condoned, etc., etc. something which could be articulated as it being His Will for men to be abusive toward women, by any measure or gradation of what may be called abuse, and I'll show you someone who places the will and thoughts of the flesh of man above the Revealed Will and Word of God.

*I referenced Gill's wording in his commentary for convenience and to profit and benefit from his restrained temperament.

taisto · Dec 17, 2023

Alan Gross said:
,
This is not a curse by God in the Bible;

Nothing there to do with a woman having had a desire to rule over a man.

*"rather this is to be understood of her being solely at the will and pleasure of her husband; that whatever she desired should be referred to him, whether she should have her desire or not, or the thing she desired; it should be liable to be controlled by his will, which must determine it, and to which she must be subject,"
..

This is not a curse of God in the Bible;

God instructed men to abuse women? in the process of ruling over them?

*"and he shall rule over thee, with less kindness and gentleness, with more rigour and strictness:

"it looks as if before the transgression there was a greater equality between the man and the woman, or man did not exercise the authority over the woman he afterwards did,

"or the subjection of her to him was more pleasant and agreeable than now it would be; and this was her chastisement,"

"because she did not ask advice of her husband about eating the fruit, but did it of herself, without his will and consent, and tempted him to do the same."
...

From the will of man, to adulterate the meaning of God's Word.

Show me a man that will say, "God instructed, wrote, judged, encouraged, suggested, implied, condoned, etc., etc. something which could be articulated as it being His Will for men to be abusive toward women, by any measure or gradation of what may be called abuse, and I'll show you someone who places the will and thoughts of the flesh of man above the Revealed Will and Word of God.

*I referenced Gill's wording in his commentary for convenience and to profit and benefit from his restrained temperament.

Alan, I have no idea how you so misunderstand. The effects of sin are involved in Galatians 3:16. The curse of sin affected both men and women and the way they would treat one another.

I have no idea how you got all twisted.

JonC · Dec 17, 2023

Alan Gross said:
Show me a man that will say, "God instructed, wrote, judged, encouraged, suggested, implied, condoned, etc., etc. something which could be articulated as it being His Will for men to be abusive toward women, by any measure or gradation of what may be called abuse, and I'll show you someone who places the will and thoughts of the flesh of man above the Revealed Will and Word of God.

*I referenced Gill's wording in his commentary for convenience and to profit and benefit from his restrained temperament.

I never said that this was the case. I believe it refers to the woman's desire for the role of the man, and God ordaining the husband to head the household.

Alan Gross · Dec 17, 2023

JonC said:
I never said that this was the case. I believe it refers to the woman's desire for the role of the man, and God ordaining the husband to head the household.

Yeah, I was asking the same thing you were, "How do you get the abusive rule over woman from that verse?"

taisto · Dec 17, 2023

Before the fall, Eve would have had the role of helper and under shepherd of creation. Here in this verse, however, she is learning that because of the fall her relationship with Adam was going to change. Adam was now going to fight with her and be tempted to be an authoritarian ruler with abusive tendencies. (All women have experienced this behavior from men at some time in their lives.)

(Genesis 3:16)
(NLT)
Then he said to the woman, “I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth. And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you.”

(ESV)
To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

(KJV)
Then he said to the woman,“I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy,and in pain you will give birth.And you will desire to control your husband,but he will rule over you.”

Alan Gross · Dec 17, 2023

taisto said:
, I have no idea how you so misunderstand.

taisto said:
I have no idea how you got all twisted.

Maybe because the title of your post is "Two-fold curse of Genesis 3:16"
and you listed the two curses you're talking about, but neither of them is in the Bible:

taisto said:
Curse on woman: Pain in child birth and the desire to rule over a man.

Curse on man: The abusive rule over woman.

taisto said:
The effects of sin are involved in Galatians 3:16.

Genesis, I take it.

taisto said:
The curse of sin affected both men and women and the way they would treat one another.

Right.

taisto · Dec 17, 2023

Alan Gross said:
Maybe because the title of your post is "Two-fold curse of Genesis 3:16"
and you listed the two curses you're talking about, but neither of them is in the Bible:

Genesis, I take it.

Right.

They are right there in Genesis 3:16.
Both are the effects of the fall. Not a curse from God, but a consequence of sin. A curse because of sin.

In this situation it seems to me that you are attempting to pick a nit.

Alan Gross · Dec 17, 2023

taisto said:
Curse on woman: Pain in child birth and the desire to rule over a man.

Curse on man: The abusive rule over woman.

taisto said:
In this situation it seems to me that you are attempting to pick a nit.

What I am doing is calling your Two-fold Curses, two very distinct lies.

taisto · Dec 18, 2023

Alan Gross said:
What I am doing is calling your Two-fold Curses, two very distinct lies.

Go ahead and call them anything you wish. You are not God and your opinions are strictly your own.

Questions:
Do men abuse women?

Did this abuse happen because of sin entering the world?

Does God tell us that men would be abusive to women?

Alan Gross · Dec 18, 2023

In Genesis 3:16, God Pronounced curses on Adam and Eve.

You have God speaking here:

taisto said:
Then he said to the woman,

Then you give the Two-fold curse of Genesis 3:16
that God Pronounced on them, and with Eve first;

taisto said:
Curse on woman: Pain in child birth and the desire to rule over a man.

However, to arrive at the curse God gives to the woman,
you take it upon yourself to reword the Bible;

taisto said:
(KJV)
Then he said to the woman,“I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy,and in pain you will give birth.And you will desire to control your husband,but he will rule over you.”

Your quote from the KJV above says, "you will desire to control your husband".

Since when?

Where did you come up with that as the translation of the KJV?

This is the KJV on Genesis 3:16;

16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow
and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;

and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

You might like to know that I am not a fan
of attributing the exact opposite meaning of God's Word, to be God's Word.

"you will desire to control your husband", is not in the KJV I have

and "you will desire to control your husband"
happens to be the exact opposite of,
"thy desire shall be to thy husband".

"thy desire shall be to thy husband", is what God said to Eve,
as the Pronouncement of His curse on her and, coming from God Himself,
is consistent with the God of the New Testament, Who says by Paul;

taisto said:
Paul specifically tells the women in the church to submit to their husbands because of the curse in Genesis 3:16.

To credit God with Pronouncing a curse which includes
the suggestion to sin against Him by saying
"And you will desire to control your husband" is a lie.
...

The next curse that you attribute to God saying to the man is also
to go sin against Him as God and that He makes the Pronouncement
that the man is to have rule over the woman that is abusive;

taisto said:
Curse on man: The abusive rule over woman.

This is another lie on God and just the opposite
of what He teaches in the New Testament;

taisto said:
Paul specifically tells the men in the church to "Love their wives" because of the curse in Genesis 3:16.

And yet you double down and want to press the point that,:

taisto said:
They are right there in Genesis 3:16.

They are?

They are?

Where?

Then you want to reverse your entire narrative somehow and try to say,

taisto said:
Both are the effects of the fall. Not a curse from God, but a consequence of sin

What happened to, "They are right there in Genesis 3:16?

"Not a curse from God"?

So they are the Two-fold Curses in Genesis 3:16,
but they are not the Two-fold Curses in Genesis 3:16?

Then what is your entire post supposed to be,
now that you have presented God as having concluded
and determined that HIS CURSES were that Adam and Eve
were to both now go sin against Him?

taisto said:
You are not God and your opinions are strictly your own.

taisto said:
Does God tell us that men would be abusive to women?

Is that your opinion of what we're supposed to get out of,
"he shall rule over thee"?

Your opinion is that you have God telling men to abuse women,
in His curse He Pronounced on them, as a Command.

Keep these type of opinions lock up somewhere else.

taisto · Dec 18, 2023

Alan Gross said:
In Genesis 3:16, God Pronounced curses on Adam and Eve.

You have God speaking here:

Then you give the Two-fold curse of Genesis 3:16
that God Pronounced on them, and with Eve first;

However, to arrive at the curse God gives to the woman,
you take it upon yourself to reword the Bible;

Your quote from the KJV above says, "you will desire to control your husband".

Since when?

Where did you come up with that as the translation of the KJV?

This is the KJV on Genesis 3:16;

16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow
and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;

and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

You might like to know that I am not a fan
of attributing the exact opposite meaning of God's Word, to be God's Word.

"you will desire to control your husband", is not in the KJV I have

and "you will desire to control your husband"
happens to be the exact opposite of,
"thy desire shall be to thy husband".

"thy desire shall be to thy husband", is what God said to Eve,
as the Pronouncement of His curse on her and, coming from God Himself,
is consistent with the God of the New Testament, Who says by Paul;

To credit God with Pronouncing a curse which includes
the suggestion to sin against Him by saying
"And you will desire to control your husband" is a lie.
...

The next curse that you attribute to God saying to the man is also
to go sin against Him as God and that He makes the Pronouncement
that the man is to have rule over the woman that is abusive;

This is another lie on God and just the opposite
of what He teaches in the New Testament;

And yet you double down and want to press the point that,:

They are?

They are?

Where?

Then you want to reverse your entire narrative somehow and try to say,

What happened to, "They are right there in Genesis 3:16?

"Not a curse from God"?

So they are the Two-fold Curses in Genesis 3:16,
but they are not the Two-fold Curses in Genesis 3:16?

Then what is your entire post supposed to be,
now that you have presented God as having concluded
and determined that HIS CURSES were that Adam and Eve
were to both now go sin against Him?

Is that your opinion of what we're supposed to get out of,
"he shall rule over thee"?

Your opinion is that you have God telling men to abuse women,
in His curse He Pronounced on them, as a Command.

Keep these type of opinions lock up somewhere else.

You are picking a nit.
I quoted the KJV using the Bible Gateway app. I don't apologize for them. The text identifies God as the speaker.
(Genesis 3:16)
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

God told the woman three things:
1) I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children

2) thy desire shall be to thy husband

3) he shall rule over thee.

You can nitpick the translation to heaven as your excuse. But, nitpicking is simply your opinion and nothing more.

In this verse, there is a curse on the woman and it reveals the curse that is upon Adam. Men, from that moment forth, would use their physical dominance to mistreat women. We observe this evil everyday. We see it in entire cultures where men treat women as second class persons.

What do we see when Christ redeems us?
(Galatians 3:28-29)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What does Paul tell women and men to do, which goes counter to the curse we see in Genesis 3:16?

(Ephesians 5:25-28)
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

God is reversing the curse in Christ. He is restoring the garden to relationships, in Christ. He is calling us to a new relationship in Christ.

This is what I see.

What I find disingenuous from you is your open accusations that I am lying. Such an accusation is false. I have not lied. You may disagree, and you have every right to hold a different view, but don't tell me and others that I am lying. That is false.

37818 · Dec 18, 2023

Genesis 3:16, ". . . Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply | thy labor | and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. . . ."

Genesis 3:17, ". . . And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground | for thy sake; in labor | shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; . . ."

taisto · Dec 18, 2023

37818 said:
Genesis 3:16, ". . . Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply | thy labor | and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. . . ."

Genesis 3:17, ". . . And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground | for thy sake; in labor | shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; . . ."

It is a curse on the woman to have her husband go from loving her to now dominating her. It is a terrible curse and both Eve and Adam know this. Adam's male offspring were going to, because of their sin nature, dominate and abuse women. It is a tragedy that Jesus atonement is able to rectify as Christians walk in faith.

I have made my point. I see no need to keep reiterating it over and over again.

Two-fold curse of Genesis 3:16

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