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What is Baptist Succession?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by taisto, Dec 30, 2023.

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  1. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    By Baptist Succession, we mean Apostolic Succession. The essential Apostolic church is the only accepted definition of the Baptist church. The local association of believers instituted by the apostles, is the only standard of ecclesiastical order and discipline, Baptists feel amenable to; only what was essential in those apostolic communities is properly distinctive of the Baptist denomination. If then the Apostolic church ever disappeared from the earth, Baptist Succession disappeared with it. But if the Apostolic church has always continued, Baptist Succession is proved.

    Baptist Succession, By W. W. Everts The Baptist Quarterly, 1877
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The ONLY Apostolic succession is our New Testament.
     
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  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    One issue is that Baptists have not only disagreed about what is true Baptist succession (Graves vs Howell, for example), about whether Baptist succession is even true, but also about ecclesiastical order and discipline.
     
  4. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    There is no Apostolic Succession.
     
  5. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    From the OP website. 7 arguments:

    Let us consider the grounds on which this Succession may be claimed.

    1. This claim is felt to be necessary to establish apostolic authority. The Papacy bases her claim to apostolic institution upon a supposed unbroken historical succession from the times of the apostles. Protestants in the time of the Reformation to vindicate their ecclesiastical character, endeavored by learned treatises to trace for themselves, an essential apostolic succession. And no historical denomination, unless Baptist are an exception, claim apostolic constitution, who do not also claim apostolic succession. It seems to be generally conceded that a community unable to trace such a descent or indifferent to it, must lack apostolic order and sanction. That Christ's order and sanction must be derived through appointment and succession from him. That any institution not deriving its order and authority through his appointment, is not his church. Hence all denominations to justify their present order have claimed for it an essential apostolic descent. It would seem strange that Baptists the only people now having the apostolic order, and therefore the only people who could possibly have an apostolic succession, should be the only people to abandon this claim, or be indifferent to its sanction and prestige the only people to admit their church is without apostolic descent a mere modern institution. The Baptist denomination makes no such weak concession. If she did in making it, she would expect an early disintegration and absorption by some denomination who could trace and appreciate an apostolic succession and authority.

    2. Assuming as Baptists do, that the Apostolic church was a Baptist church, the presumption of its continuance is so great as to be set aside only by positive isproof. Pedobaptists denying the Baptist character of the Apostolic church; may, rightfully demand full positive proof both of the apostolic origin and succession of the Baptist church. But Baptists conceding the origin, the succession inevitably follows, unless shown to have been interrupted. But the

    [p. 411]
    proof of any interruption of that original order of churches has been challenged and waited for in vain. When and where did the last Apostolic church become extinct, breaking the succession of Baptists churches? In what century can it be shown there were not thousands of such churches sheltered in the wilderness from the rage of Antichrist? Who has the termerity to declare there was ever a time when not a single Apostolic or Baptist church remained on the earth? If then, the apostolic order of churches never ceased, the succession of Baptist churches was never interrupted. And we may continue to rejoice in apostolic succession as well as in apostolic origin and character.
    3. Assuming further, the Apostolic or Baptist church, was an institution, and not a mere casual assembly, and we have an additional presumption in favor of its continuance, so strong that nothing less than positive disproof can set it aside. If the original church was only a casual assembly, as claimed by some modern sectaries, its succession could no more be identified than a succession of casual political assemblies or extemporized social gatherings. But if the church was an institution as all historical denominations claim, and that institution was formulated by the ordinances of Christ, its succession may be traced in conformities to these ordinances. By the very force of instituted order its perpetuity is assured. As Civil Government is a divine institution and cannot cease to exist without civil anarchy, and as the family is a divine institution and cannot be abrogated without social disorder and misery; so the church was instituted as a permanent order of religion, and the force and fitness of its appointment assure its perpetuity. Any interruption of its order would be a reflection upon the wisdom and authority of the lawgiver. As eure as the Apostolic church was an institution it must have continued in unbroken succession throughout the ages.

    4. The succession of the Apostolic or Baptist church, was assured by the promise of its founder that, "The gates of Hell should not prevail against it." This promise must have contemplated the church iu her two-fold character as described in the New Testament both as a spiritual fellowship and as an institution. There is no more reason for overlooking its application to the organized church than to the spiritual body. It can mean no less than that the rage of persecution shall neither exterminate the universal spiritual church, nor banish from the earth the instituted church of Christ. Though persecuted, it should not be destroyed. Though driven into the wilderness, it should survive there. If there was a time when

    [p. 412
    the last church was overthrown and no covenanted fellowship of believers remained on the earth, divine promise must have failed. If on the other hand, the promise was verified, the succession of Apostolic or Baptist churches never ceased.
    5. The very simplicity of the Baptist, or Apostolic church, as forcibly urged by the author of the "Church in the Wilderness," makes its extinction almost inconceivable without the extinction of Christianity itself. If Christianity continued, it must ever have tended strongly to assume its own perscribed and normal order. The Apostolic church was that normal organization. However dispersed, believers would ever be seeking reunion and organization, according to Christ's laws. So that when believers were found free from external dictation, they would in the first effort of loyalty to Christ, restore his church. Aud where two or three in faith's communion united, observing the order and worship of Christ, there was the essential Apostolic, or Baptist church. It is hardly possible therefore, to believe there has been any period of the Christian era, when Baptist churches have not existed in great numbers in some part of the earth. While the extinction of the last of them seems to us altogether incredible. Negative proof would avail nothing toward discrediting a succession of such churches. As well deny the perpetuity of civil government, because through some periods, no annals of states are found; or, deny succession of families because family tables have not been preserved, as to deny a succession of Apostolic churches, because Antichrist dispersed them, or destroyed their records. We no more doubt a succession of such churches, than we doubt the inevitable succession of families and states in the earth.

    6. The uninterrupted operation of the spiritual forces, creating the Apostolic, or Baptist church, must inevitably have insured its succession. If the word and spirit of God created a particular type of church in apostolic times, and they create the same type of church in our time, so surely as these forces continued to operate through the intervening ages they must have produced the same type of church. If these forces never ceased to operate, the succession of the Apostolic, or Baptist churches never ceased. As the same plates produce the same book in the tenth or hundredth edition as in the first, so same typal spiritual forces must have produced the same order of churches in all ages. As we do not doubt the continued operation of these spiritual forces in some part of the earth, we believe in a succession of Apostolic, or Baptist churches to our own time.

    [p. 413]
     
  6. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Cont...

    7. The prevalence of Baptist principles throughout the centuries as shown by scholars, proves a necessary succession of the churches, those principles formulate. Those jealously maintaining the independence of the church; the sole authority of the Scriptures as the rule of faith and practice; the spiritual character and discipline and the baptismal order of the church, must have been Baptists. The churches they constituted, must have been Baptist churches. To call them Pedobaptist churches while practicing, even suffering and dying for Baptist principles, would be a logical absurdity and a base calumny. Exceptional interpretation or observance can no more discredit their Baptist lineage and character than those of English, Scotch, German, or American Baptists. The reproaches heaped on Montainists, Donatists, Novatians, and Earlier Waldenses, are no greater, nor from more unpredjudiced sources than those heaped upon Christ and his apostles, Luther and his coadjutors, Whitfield and Wesley, our German Baptists, and all leaders of revivals. If there has been any succession of Christ's church, it must have been through the great religious bodies persecuted by Antichrist to vindicate a fictitious claim to apostolic succession. If there has been any apostolic succession, it must be traced through these great dissenting communities, or through Papacy. As no Protestant admits a succession through Papacy, it must be accepted through these Protestant bodies. But it is ascertain that these bodies were Anti-Pedobaptist-anna-Baptist, as that they were Protestant. Any succession, therefore, through them must be "Baptist Succession." If it be urged, the evidence of their Baptist character are rather meagre. We answer the evidence of their Anna-baptism are not meagre. And if Anna-Baptist, they were not Pedobaptist. Moreover, the evidences are not meagre considering they have survived the destruction of annals by Antichrist, to vindicate her rival claim to apostolic succession. Besides the facts complained of as few, are formative, and demonstrate certain order and organization. From a single bone, the naturalist determines a species of animal; from the classification of a few fossils, he constructs a Museum of Natural History; from the study of fossils in different parts of the globe he distributes the animal races in their several habitats over the earth and through successive periods.
    So the candid ecclesiastical historian may find distinctive principles enough to identify and distinguish the Christian from the Anti-Christian communities through successive ages, and in different lands. The name Anna-Baptist, attributed as a reproach, has always identified Anti-Papal and Anti-Pedobaptist communities. And where we

    [p. 414]
    discover among them church independence, Scriptural doctrine, spiritual character, and baptismal order, we find Baptist churches. And our conclusion is based on as certain grounds as that, on which the naturalist has reared the science of zoology, and distributed the habitats of the animal races over the earth, and through different periods.
    The importance as well as the fact of the succession of Apostolic, or Baptist churches, has been overlooked. Only through them has the lordship of Christ been most signally maintained against Antichrist, and the regenerating power of Christianity most conspicuously illustrated. The greatness of England and America, has arisen from the order and discipline of ten thousand independent homes. So throughout Christendom, the highest industry, thrift, contentment, social purity, charity and happiness, and the highest culture, freedom, and progress have eminated from independent Apostolic churches. The greatest, most comprehensive, and beneficent reform of the world would be the superseding of all other religious institutions, state establishments, and hierarchies, by the simple, spiritual, independent order of Apostolic, or Baptist churches. The prestige of the divine appointment and perpetuity of the apostolic order of churches, would greatly aid their restoration. The fictitious claim of Papacy, challenges the devotion of millions. The true claim of Baptists, vindicated, will inspire a more intelligent, if not a more enthusiastic devotion. Let then, our apostolic succession be more confidently claimed and celebrated. Families boast of illustrious descent. States celebrate the names of their founders. All faiths canonize their prophets. The Hebrews never ceased to reverence Abraham and Moses. Our Lord came not to abrogate the law and the prophets, but to interpret and fulfil them. He recognized the inevitable succession of prophets, and dispensations of religion. We can no more find truth without antecedent utterance than a tree without roots. A theology which has no affinities with the past, is an imposture. A church without succession, is Antichrist. The true church is not a modern institution. It has descended from the institution of the apostles, to our times. It can no more be discredited by loss of annals, than a state by inability to identify an historical succession of states from the Roman Empire, or the Hebrew commonwealth, or a family by inability to trace its descent through a succession of marriages from Paradise. In either case an essential unbroken succession is certain. That succession we may magnify though all the historical connections may not be traced.

    [p. 415]

    Disparagement, or neglect of a noble ancestry, savors of ignorance, or self-conceit. Men may be flattered by the reputation of having founded a new party, or championed a new sect, who lack the humility or magnaminity to honor their predecessors. If the sentiment that has honored Luther in literature, song, painting and statue, through centuries is justified, should we not celebrate the name of Humeyer, his peer in learning and logic, and his superior in Christian character and loyalty to Christ? Is ignorance of the heroic testimony and sufferings of Montainists, Donatists, Novatians, and Waldenses, through centuries hazarding their lives for the name of Jesus and the order of his church; and through whom alone the Apostolic doctrine and order of Christianity have been preserved to us, creditable either to our intelligence or our professed devotion to the truth?
    =============
    W. W. Everts.
    Chicago.

    [From Henry G. Weston, editor, The Baptist Quarterly, October, Volume XI, 1877, 409-415. Document from Google Books On-line. Scanned and formatted by Jim Duvall.]
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    So are you denying the New Testament to be authentic? If it is authentic it alone is Apostolic. From God, from Apostles and first century church prophets, to its readers. It's Apostloic authority ends with it, the New Testament.
     
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  8. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    There are no apostles today; no one succeeded them; no one replaced them.

    The apostles and prophets laid the foundation; none other can be laid.

    God has in these last days spoken to us by His Son. The canon is closed; if any man adds to or takes away, God takes away his part or adds the curses in the book.

    The New Testament is the end of His speaking to us until He returns. There is no Apostolic Succession, no more apostles nor prophets.
     
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  9. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    The last sentence is literal nonsense but the second to last sentence is not.

    There was not any Apostolic succession at all aside from the replacement of Judas with Matthias. Thus, by the Baptists Quaterly's own statement, Baptist Succession has, in fact, disappeared.

    In fact, the only Christian sect with anything that resembles an actual tradition of Apostolic succession is the Roman Catholic church which, although they pretend otherwise, cannot actually trace their history beyond 313 AD, when the Roman Emperor Constantine made Christianity a legal religion.
     
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  10. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    As a Bible believer, who is a Baptist and believes that Baptist-like Church Succession is a Baptist Doctrine and a Bible Doctrine, and a Christian Doctrine (and that "Anti-Church Succession" is a fully documentable Infidel Doctrine), I have to jump in and negatively say, "nope", to pretty much all of these statements.

    Nope.

    Nope.

    Not according to, "By Baptist Succession, we mean Apostolic Succession."

    Nope.

    Not according to, "By Baptist Succession, we mean Apostolic Succession."

    Nope.

    Nope.

    Yep.

    Right.

    Ahhh,

    I went into pontificating a little bit as to what I believe God instructed in I Corinthians 12, for His children to please and Worship Him, because I happen to think that it is of the utmost importance in life, which is: for saved souls to all put their "light on a candlestick*", by following His example and command and to be scripturally baptized into a church* of the kind that JESUS BUILT,

    to serve God and bring Him Glory in and through one of Jesus' church bodies*, at:
    Which, "Religion of It's Not There", should we Choose to Practice, as being, "Bible Christianity"?

    and I went on to add what I believe the Bible defines a "church" to be, because God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit happen to think that it is of the utmost, paramount, importance, which is where saved souls are to put their "light on a candlestick*", by following His command and being scripturally baptized into a church* of the kind that JESUS BUILT,

    to serve God and bring Him Glory in and through one of Jesus' church bodies*, at:
    Which, "Religion of It's Not There", should we Choose to Practice, as being, "Bible Christianity"?

    The issue with the article guy is that he doesn't know what you know:
    That is a most beautiful way to pretend to be able to conclude:
    ,
    however, it is manifestly absurd to ever propound off jump street, so he gets an "F", in brilliant smartness.

    11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ, hits the nail right square on its Eternally significant head.

    What Jesus did when He said,
    "on this Rock" (Himself), "I will build My church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it", is where a Baptist that is worth their weight in Bible Doctrine, will hang their hat.

    Jesus Divinely Originated and Founded an Organized Institution, to be a
    "Habitation of God through the Spirit", that He anointed with that Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, once and forever, that was the Shekinah Glory

    no different than that of the Tabernacle or Temple, and it is that Almighty Spirit of God that has Administered and Perpetuated that kind of Organization Jesus called,
    "My church", from that day, until this, 2024.

    God has enlisted
    all of His Eternal Attributes into the continual succession of Jesus churches, in which His children are to bring "unto Him be Glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." Ephesians 3:21.

    They are "God's building", as this first verse from I Corinthians 3:9, says,

    and part of the fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah 6 who said, in vs 12
    "And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,

    "Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;

    "and he shall grow up out of his place,

    "and he shall build the temple of the LORD:


    13 "Even he shall build the temple of the LORD;

    "and he shall bear the glory,

    "and shall sit and rule upon his throne;

    "and he shall be a priest upon his throne:

    "and the counsel of peace shall be between them both."

    I will build "My church" is not the first time Jesus ever thought about, building, "the temple of the LORD" and also not the first time He had ever contemplated that "he shall bear the glory".

    Studying the Bible is fun.

    Having
    "Church Truth" disclosed to you, by the Creator God of the Universe, that is loaded up and brimming over in the Bible, is just glorious.


    I Corinthians 3:
    9 "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

    10 "According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

    11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    12 "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

    13 "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."
     
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  11. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    Apostolic Succession, in Christianity, the teaching that bishops represent a direct, uninterrupted line of continuity from the first Apostles of Jesus Christ. According to this teaching, bishops possess certain special powers handed down to them from the Apostles; these consist primarily of the right to confirm church members, to ordain priests, to consecrate other bishops, and to rule over the clergy and church members in their diocese (an area made up of several congregations).

    It does not exist.
     
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  12. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    The thread is about Baptist Succession of the Faith, which I believe @37818 claimed to hold.
     
  13. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    Something of Baptist Succession may have some amount of truth to it.

    Doesn’t matter. We should live by the New Testament alone, and glean principles from the Law and the Prophets.
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Thread is closed as OP has been banned.
     
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