Conversion?

Since I have been on this board I have heard Salvation, Sanctification, Justification, Atonement and Election I could run a list if I wanted to do but that's not necessary... Not to say there isn't a OP on this subject but I personally haven't seen it... So I will just start a new one... There is no doubt in my mind that Peter was a saved man when Jesus made this comment and this was just before Jesus said Peter would deny him, three times... I don't believe you can convert a unregenerate man... A man must be regenerated before conversion and by the unction of the Holy Spirit brought to the realization, what he needs to turn away from... And what is the Lord telling Peter in Luke?... And what benefit if any does it have for us now?... Brother Glen

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

I am not sure that conversion was possible prior to the Resurrection. These verses may also be considered:

Matthew 13:15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 18:3 Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

There is no need to “convert” a man that is already regenerated because he is already converted, which is why he’s already regenerated.

In Luke 22:31-32 the KJV uses an unfortunate English word. The ESV gives a better understanding.

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you,that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

Jesus knew that Satan was going to try devour Peter's faith, but Jesus tells Peter that he (the Great High Priest who ever intercedes in our behalf) had prayed that Satan could not devour all of Peter's faith. Jesus then tells him that when he repents (turns, converts) he must go strengthen the others in their faith.

Peter already had faith in Christ, but it was to be sorely tested at the trial, the cross, and the days between the resurrection. In that time, Peter's faith was being devoured by Satan, yet Satan was not allowed to devour all of Peter's faith. He would repent of his unbelief and become a great encourager of faith to all the others.

tyndale1946 said:

Since I have been on this board I have heard Salvation, Sanctification, Justification, Atonement and Election I could run a list if I wanted to do but that's not necessary... Not to say there isn't a OP on this subject but I personally haven't seen it... So I will just start a new one... There is no doubt in my mind that Peter was a saved man when Jesus made this comment and this was just before Jesus said Peter would deny him, three times... I don't believe you can convert a unregenerate man... A man must be regenerated before conversion and by the unction of the Holy Spirit brought to the realization, what he needs to turn away from... And what is the Lord telling Peter in Luke?... And what benefit if any does it have for us now?... Brother Glen

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

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Tyndale1946 you wrote: A man must be regenerated before conversion and by the unction {anointing} of the Holy Spirit brought to the realization, what he needs to turn away from... From what??, sin.

Webster tells us that: Regeneration In theology, is the new birth by the grace of God. So from what you have written we would have people saved prior to them believing in Christ Jesus. An unregenerate man would logically be one that does not trust in Christ Jesus which would include everyone prior to conversion. The bible tells us that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of our sinful nature, this is true, but does so while we are still unregenerate while we are still in our sin.

What is Christ saying to Peter, that is a good question for us to look at. One thing that we need to understand is that the “you” in the verse is plural so it is not just Peter or even just the other disciples that Satan will test but all those that are in Christ.

We as Christians should understand and expect that we will be attacked but even though we may waver we should remember who is our strength. Christ said that He would pray for us so we are never alone in this fight. We should also be ready to come alongside those that are struggling. We can tell/remind them of how when we struggled and turned to Christ in prayer He was there to comfort and guide us.

Silverhair said:

Tyndale1946 you wrote: A man must be regenerated before conversion and by the unction {anointing} of the Holy Spirit brought to the realization, what he needs to turn away from... From what??, sin.

Webster tells us that: Regeneration In theology, is the new birth by the grace of God. So from what you have written we would have people saved prior to them believing in Christ Jesus. An unregenerate man would logically be one that does not trust in Christ Jesus which would include everyone prior to conversion. The bible tells us that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of our sinful nature, this is true, but does so while we are still unregenerate while we are still in our sin.

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Looking for a theological definition in Webster is problematic. Why not look to the Bible? The are two places where the ESV translates the Greek using the word "regeneration"--Matthew 19:28 and Titus 3:5. The Matthew passage is fairly irrelevant to this discussion, but the Titus passage is not. Titus says:

This word "regeneration" is παλιγγενεσία, which is a compound word meaning--literally--born again. In this passage, the main verb is "He saved us." If you go back to your gradeschool days and do a bit of diagramming, you'll see that the subject here is "God" and "He" is doing the saving. Why is He doing the saving? He's merciful. How is He doing the saving? "By the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."

So, it is clearly the work of God to both regenerate and renew us. This is perfectly in-step with Jesus' words to Nicodemus in John 3 where Jesus tells him, "You must be born again." Being born again is not something we can do for ourselves; it must be done to us.

Silverhair said:

What is Christ saying to Peter, that is a good question for us to look at. One thing that we need to understand is that the “you” in the verse is plural so it is not just Peter or even just the other disciples that Satan will test but all those that are in Christ.

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In point of fact, the "you" in verse 31 (of Luke 22) is indeed plural... so the sifting is of more than Peter. However, the "you"s in verse 32 are singular and are referring to Peter alone.

Silverhair said:

We as Christians should understand and expect that we will be attacked but even though we may waver we should remember who is our strength. Christ said that He would pray for us so we are never alone in this fight. We should also be ready to come alongside those that are struggling. We can tell/remind them of how when we struggled and turned to Christ in prayer He was there to comfort and guide us.

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The sentiment here is just fine, but it is based on bad exegesis of the passage...

The Archangel

The Archangel said:

Looking for a theological definition in Webster is problematic. Why not look to the Bible? The are two places where the ESV translates the Greek using the word "regeneration"--Matthew 19:28 and Titus 3:5. The Matthew passage is fairly irrelevant to this discussion, but the Titus passage is not. Titus says:

[5] he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, [6] whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, [7] so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:5–7 ESV, emphasis mine)
​

This word "regeneration" is παλιγγενεσία, which is a compound word meaning--literally--born again. In this passage, the main verb is "He saved us." If you go back to your gradeschool days and do a bit of diagramming, you'll see that the subject here is "God" and "He" is doing the saving. Why is He doing the saving? He's merciful. How is He doing the saving? "By the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."

So, it is clearly the work of God to both regenerate and renew us. This is perfectly in-step with Jesus' words to Nicodemus in John 3 where Jesus tells him, "You must be born again." Being born again is not something we can do for ourselves; it must be done to us.

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Well since my grade school days are close to 70 years ago I do not remember if they did show us sentence diagramming.
But on to the main point. You said "Looking for a theological definition in Webster is problematic" why would that be? Webster tells us that: Regeneration In theology, "is the new birth by the grace of God". which you call problematic and then proceed to agree with what Webster said. And which we see in the verses that you quoted Titus 3:5–7. We can see this view clarified when we look at Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, in other words will be born anew as a child of God. So we see the order is belief and then being regenerated/born again by the grace of God. Man does not save himself but God only saves those that trust in His risen Son.

The Archangel said:

In point of fact, the "you" in verse 31 (of Luke 22) is indeed plural... so the sifting is of more than Peter. However, the "you"s in verse 32 are singular and are referring to Peter alone.

The sentiment here is just fine, but it is based on bad exegesis of the passage...

The Archangel

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Lets look at what Tyndale asked;
"And what is the Lord telling Peter in Luke?... And what benefit if any does it have for us now?... Brother Glen"

What did I say in response:
"We as Christians should understand and expect that we will be attacked but even though we may waver we should remember who is our strength. Christ said that He would pray for us so we are never alone in this fight. We should also be ready to come alongside those that are struggling. We can tell/remind them of how when we struggled and turned to Christ in prayer He was there to comfort and guide us."

Glen asked for an opinion, which I gave. How is that considered bad exegesis? Are we to conclude from your comment that we should not expect trials or we should not council those that do have trials? If you have concluded that then that is just bad exegesis of the passage on your part.

Didn't Christ say He would pray for us in John 14? Didn't He say in Matthew 28 He would be with us to the end of the world?

Seems to me Silverhair is correct.

MrW said:

Didn't Christ say He would pray for us in John 14? Didn't He say in Matthew 28 He would be with us to the end of the world?

Seems to me Silverhair is correct.

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Who is "us" in your claim?
Is it those who believe or is it all humanity?

Silverhair said:

Well since my grade school days are close to 70 years ago I do not remember if they did show us sentence diagramming.

But on to the main point. You said "Looking for a theological definition in Webster is problematic" why would that be? Webster tells us that: Regeneration In theology, "is the new birth by the grace of God". which you call problematic and then proceed to agree with what Webster said. And which we see in the verses that you quoted Titus 3:5–7. We can see this view clarified when we look at Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, in other words will be born anew as a child of God. So we see the order is belief and then being regenerated/born again by the grace of God. Man does not save himself but God only saves those that trust in His risen Son.

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The "problematic" part was not Webster's definition, per se, but was your looking for a theological definition in a secular source. Your reference of Mark 16:16 is interesting, and I'm not sure why you reference it since it is missing the "whoever" in the Greek. In the Greek "All the ones believing" is a participle. Similarly "all the ones not believing" is also a participle. It makes no statement to who may or may not believe. Also, from this text, there is no "order" discussed as there are no subjunctives. The point that Jesus is making is that the ones believing will be saved and the ones not believing will not be saved. To that simple point I have no argument. But, the passage is not saying what you're arguing it says.

But, I did notice that you ran away from the Titus 3:5 passage, since the "God saved us" is the verb and He does it through regeneration and renewal. Whereas the Mark 16:16 passage contains no order, the Titus passages does. Salvation, in Titus, comes by means of regeneration; regeneration does not come by means of salvation.

Silverhair said:

Lets look at what Tyndale asked;
"And what is the Lord telling Peter in Luke?... And what benefit if any does it have for us now?... Brother Glen"

What did I say in response:
"We as Christians should understand and expect that we will be attacked but even though we may waver we should remember who is our strength. Christ said that He would pray for us so we are never alone in this fight. We should also be ready to come alongside those that are struggling. We can tell/remind them of how when we struggled and turned to Christ in prayer He was there to comfort and guide us."

Glen asked for an opinion, which I gave. How is that considered bad exegesis? Are we to conclude from your comment that we should not expect trials or we should not council those that do have trials? If you have concluded that then that is just bad exegesis of the passage on your part.

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You'll notice that you're claiming that Jesus said he'd pray for the disciples (hence your use of "us"). That's not what the text says. When Jesus says, "I'll pray for you," the "you" is singular and refers to Peter, not the other disciples.

Again, the sentiment that you have shared is OK, but the way you get there from this text is not. Praying for one another is a wonderful thing. Having Christ as our advocate is even more of a wonderful thing. But, the passage you've referenced here doesn't support the sentiment, that's all I was pointing out. Specifically, I was pointing out that Jesus' prayer was not for all the disciples (as you suggested). In this text, it was specifically for Peter.

The Archangel

The Archangel said:

The "problematic" part was not Webster's definition, per se, but was your looking for a theological definition in a secular source. You're reference of Mark 16:16 is interesting, and I'm not sure why you reference it since it is missing the "whoever" in the Greek. In the Greek "All the ones believing" is a participle. Similarly "all the ones not believing" is also a participle. It makes no statement to who may or may not believe. Also, from this text, there is no "order" discussed as there are no subjunctives. The point that Jesus is making is that the ones believing will be saved and the ones not believing will not be saved. To that simple point I have no argument. But, the passage is not saying what you're arguing it says.

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Agreed the words whoever is not in the Greek but what do you think "He who believes" means? Do you see a restriction there as to who can believe, NO you do not. What we are told is the all those that believe will be saved and all those that do not believe will be condemned. Does your bible say something different. Were you perhaps expecting a list of names of the saved and condemned.
The order is believe saved, not believe not saved I have to ask how can you miss that? Is it because you do not want to see it for some theological reason?

The Archangel said:

But, I did notice that you ran away from the Titus 3:5 passage, since the "God saved us" is the verb and He does it through regeneration and renewal. Whereas the Mark 16:16 passage contains no order, the Titus passages does. Salvation, in Titus, comes by means of regeneration; regeneration does not come by means of salvation.

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Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we did, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of Spiritual rebirth, and renewing by THE Holy Spirit; EW Bullinger
I see two errors in your comment
1] Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
If one believes then they are saved if one does not believe then they are condemned. The order is right there in the text.
2] Actually salvation and regeneration equate to the same thing don't they. Do you disagree with what Webster said Regeneration In theology, "is the new birth by the grace of God"? So the question is how did God save us, answer by spiritual rebirth. Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we did, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of Spiritual rebirth, and renewing by THE Holy Spirit; EW Bullinger
God saved us when we we reborn / born again / saved/ regenerated. Pick the term you want as they all mean the save thing from a salvation standpoint.
Actually Mar 16:16 is much clearer re the order of salvation than Titus 3:5 is.

The Archangel said:

You'll notice that you're claiming that Jesus said he'd pray for the disciples (hence your use of "us"). That's not what the text says. When Jesus says, "I'll pray for you," the "you" is singular and refers to Peter, not the other disciples.

Again, the sentiment that you have shared is OK, but the way you get there from this text is not. Praying for one another is a wonderful thing. Having Christ as our advocate is even more of a wonderful thing. But, the passage you've referenced here doesn't support the sentiment, that's all I was pointing out. Specifically, I was pointing out that Jesus' prayer was not for all the disciples (as you suggested). In this text, it was specifically for Peter.

The Archangel

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Here is what I posted "What is Christ saying to Peter, that is a good question for us to look at. One thing that we need to understand is that the “you” in the verse is plural so it is not just Peter or even just the other disciples that Satan will test but all those that are in Christ." Are we not looking at those verses? Would that not be "us" that are looking at them?

Do you actually think that Christ would not pray form His disciples or for those that have trusted in Him? According to John, Christ prayed for both His disciples {Joh 17:9} and for those that would come to trust in Him through their word, {Joh 17:20} Christians. Christ prayed that we should be kept from the evil one {Joh 17:15} Satan asked to be able to test all not just Peter. Christ knew that Peter would face hard testing so He told Him that He would pray for him but do you think that Christ would not pray for all?

Silverhair said:

Agreed the words whoever is not in the Greek but what do you think "He who believes" means? Do you see a restriction there as to who can believe, NO you do not. What we are told is the all those that believe will be saved and all those that do not believe will be condemned. Does your bible say something different. Were you perhaps expecting a list of names of the saved and condemned.
The order is believe saved, not believe not saved I have to ask how can you miss that? Is it because you do not want to see it for some theological reason?

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"He who believes" means "he who believes." While there is no restriction to who can believe in this particular text, there is also no statement as to the openness or closedness of who can or can't or who will or won't believe. Again, the statement isn't stating an if/then; it's just a simple fact.

I'm not missing anything. What you're reading into this passage simply isn't there. I know you want it to be there, but it isn't.

Silverhair said:

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we did, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of Spiritual rebirth, and renewing by THE Holy Spirit; EW Bullinger
I see two errors in your comment
1] Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
If one believes then they are saved if one does not believe then they are condemned. The order is right there in the text.

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Again, in the Mark passage, the statement isn't presented as an order in the grammar of the text. That the passive is used in the verbs "will be saved" and "will be condemned" is interesting as the subject (or the referent of the verb) "the one believing" cannot take part in the "will be saved" because of the passive verb. You're seeing a type of quid-pro-quo that isn't there.

Silverhair said:

2] Actually salvation and regeneration equate to the same thing don't they. Do you disagree with what Webster said Regeneration In theology, "is the new birth by the grace of God"? So the question is how did God save us, answer by spiritual rebirth. Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we did, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of Spiritual rebirth, and renewing by THE Holy Spirit; EW Bullinger
God saved us when we we reborn / born again / saved/ regenerated. Pick the term you want as they all mean the save thing from a salvation standpoint.
Actually Mar 16:16 is much clearer re the order of salvation than Titus 3:5 is.

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Do salvation and regeneration equate to the same thing? You certainly haven't been arguing that. Your argumentation has been that salvation must precede regeneration.

If God saves us "by spiritual rebirth" as you say above, then that rebirth must come first as the "by" is the means by which salvation occurs.

Again, the discussion of Jesus and Nicodemus (which you have continually ignored whenever I've mentioned it) is instructive for the "born again" discussion. Jesus tells Nicodemus "you must be born again." That's not a command.

Silverhair said:

Here is what I posted "What is Christ saying to Peter, that is a good question for us to look at. One thing that we need to understand is that the “you” in the verse is plural so it is not just Peter or even just the other disciples that Satan will test but all those that are in Christ." Are we not looking at those verses? Would that not be "us" that are looking at them?

Do you actually think that Christ would not pray form His disciples or for those that have trusted in Him? According to John, Christ prayed for both His disciples {Joh 17:9} and for those that would come to trust in Him through their word, {Joh 17:20} Christians. Christ prayed that we should be kept from the evil one {Joh 17:15} Satan asked to be able to test all not just Peter. Christ knew that Peter would face hard testing so He told Him that He would pray for him but do you think that Christ would not pray for all?

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Again, and read this carefully, I'm not opposed to the sentiment which you shared. I'm opposed to what you said about Jesus praying for all the disciples when the text clearly says that he--in this particular instance--is praying for Peter alone.

Do I think Christ would pray for all the disciples? Sure. Does the text of Luke 22:31-32 say that He did in that particular instance? No.

The Archangel

The Archangel said:

"He who believes" means "he who believes." While there is no restriction to who can believe in this particular text, there is also no statement as to the openness or closedness of who can or can't or who will or won't believe. Again, the statement isn't stating an if/then; it's just a simple fact.

I'm not missing anything. What you're reading into this passage simply isn't there. I know you want it to be there, but it isn't.

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Your right it is just stating a simple fact. Those that believe will be saved those that do not will be condemned. Simple fact. So the truth is there as clear as black ink on white paper. I know you want to ignore it but it is there.

The Archangel said:

Again, in the Mark passage, the statement isn't presented as an order in the grammar of the text. That the passive is used in the verbs "will be saved" and "will be condemned" is interesting as the subject (or the referent of the verb) "the one believing" cannot take part in the "will be saved" because of the passive verb. You're seeing a type of quid-pro-quo that isn't there.

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The person who believes or disbelieves is in the active voice so they are the ones either believing or not. God does not do that for them. You say that the order is not stated in the grammar of the text. Well what do you think it says, that they are saved then they believe and they are condemned then they disbelieve? Even a grade school child could tell you that believe comes before saved, not believe comes before condemned in the sentence.

The Archangel said:

Do salvation and regeneration equate to the same thing? You certainly haven't been arguing that. Your argumentation has been that salvation must precede regeneration.

If God saves us "by spiritual rebirth" as you say above, then that rebirth must come first as the "by" is the means by which salvation occurs.

Again, the discussion of Jesus and Nicodemus (which you have continually ignored whenever I've mentioned it) is instructive for the "born again" discussion. Jesus tells Nicodemus "you must be born again." That's not a command.

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What did I put in my post "God saved us when we were reborn / born again / saved/ regenerated." What do you think salvation is if not one being reborn / born again / saved/ regenerated? They are equal and that is what I have been arguing. One is not regenerated so they can then believe as has been posted on this board. They are regenerated / saved because they believe.
The best explanation I have come across regarding Joh 3:5 in one by McGee.
"For me the best understanding of this verse is that "water" = the word of God {Eph_5:26} & "Spirt" = the Holy Spirit. {Tit_3:5} Thus this verse could be written, "... no one can enter the Kingdom of God without hearing the word of God and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit" or in the case of Nicodemus trusting that the signs pointed to Christ as the Messiah and believing in Him.

The Archangel said:

Again, and read this carefully, I'm not opposed to the sentiment which you shared. I'm opposed to what you said about Jesus praying for all the disciples when the text clearly says that he--in this particular instance--is praying for Peter alone.

Do I think Christ would pray for all the disciples? Sure. Does the text of Luke 22:31-32 say that He did in that particular instance? No.

The Archangel

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I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point. Have you never told someone in a group study that you would pray for them during a closing prayer? You could mention them by name but you still prayed for all present. I just look at the context in which we see that more disciples than Peter were present and we know from the text that all were going to be tested. So did Christ pray for Peter yes but nothing in the text says He did not pray for all and we know that He did at other times when asking for guidance and protection for them.

Peter was already converted when Jesus made the comment but his viewpoint was in a different direction... Peter was so afraid to be associated with Jesus, he fell asleep in the garden, he denied him three times and when Jesus Christ died, what did he say?... I go fishing... But when Jesus rose from the tomb and he saw Jesus with his own eyes, then he needed to adopt a different viewpoint... Like Jesus told him... When thou art converted strengthen the brethren

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Right after according to scripture Peter said this he tried to stand in Jesus way to accomplish what he came down here to do... So when did what Jesus say to Peter come about?... On the day of Pentecost when 3,000 souls were added to the church... Brother Glen

Btw... Salvation comes before conversion!

tyndale1946 said:

Peter was already converted when Jesus made the comment but his viewpoint was in a different direction... Peter was so afraid to be associated with Jesus, he fell asleep in the garden, he denied him three times and when Jesus Christ died, what did he say?... I go fishing... But when Jesus rose from the tomb and he saw Jesus with his own eyes, then he needed to adopt a different viewpoint... Like Jesus told him... When thou art converted strengthen the brethren

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Right after according to scripture Peter said this he tried to stand in Jesus way to accomplish what he came down here to do... So when did what Jesus say to Peter come about?... On the day of Pentecost when 3,000 souls were added to the church... Brother Glen

Btw... Salvation comes before conversion!

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So your saying the person has to be saved before they will trust in Christ Jesus. If that were true then why would it be necessary for them to trust in Christ. faith is not necessary for salvation. Of course the bible disagrees with you but I am sure you have clear scripture that supports your view or you would not have said it, right.

Websters definition of "conversion" is:
In a theological or moral sense, a change of heart, or dispositions, in which the enmity of the heart to God and his law and the obstinacy of the will are subdued, and are succeeded by supreme love to God and his moral government, and a reformation of life.

Are you in agreement with what he said?

So assuming that your view is correct, how do you deal with these verses;
Act 16:30 ... "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

1Co 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

The bible indicates that one must trust the message, they must have a change of heart regarding God and turn to God prior to them being saved. In other words there must be conversion prior to salvation.

taisto said:

Who is "us" in your claim?
Is it those who believe or is it all humanity?

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He prays for believers.

MrW said:

He prays for believers.

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So, the "us" is believers, not the whole world. If this is a correct interpretation of you comments, then I thank you for clarification. If not, then please restate.

taisto said:

So, the "us" is believers, not the whole world. If this is a correct interpretation of you comments, then I thank you for clarification. If not, then please restate.

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For clarification purposes only, if you look at the context you will see that Christ was speaking to His disciples prior to His crucifixion so not the world in general. He was telling them that God would send the Holy Spirit to teach and guide them.

So logically the "us" in Joh 14 would be believers in Christ Jesus as they were His disciples. But to extrapolate from this that He only prays for believer's would be wrong as we see in John 17 that He prays for the disciples but also for those that would come to believe through their teaching. In other words He prays for those that are not yet believers. So we see that Christ's prayer in Joh 17:20-21 fulfills what we are told is God's desire. "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1Ti 2:3-4

Hope that clears things up for you Taisto

Silverhair said:

For clarification purposes only, if you look at the context you will see that Christ was speaking to His disciples prior to His crucifixion so not the world in general. He was telling them that God would send the Holy Spirit to teach and guide them.

So logically the "us" in Joh 14 would be believers in Christ Jesus as they were His disciples. But to extrapolate from this that He only prays for believer's would be wrong as we see in John 17 that He prays for the disciples but also for those that would come to believe through their teaching. In other words He prays for those that are not yet believers. So we see that Christ's prayer in Joh 17:20-21 fulfills what we are told is God's desire. "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1Ti 2:3-4

Hope that clears things up for you Taisto

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Thanks for you input. Here is John 17:20-21.

“I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me through their message. I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.

It reads like Jesus is praying only for those who believe.

Also, in Hebrews 7:24-25 we read:
But because Jesus lives forever, his priesthood lasts forever. Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf.

So it seems that his prayers are only for those who believe. I would expect that even those who only hold to the foreknowledge of God would agree that the text indicates only prayer for those who believe.

taisto said:

Thanks for you input. Here is John 17:20-21.

“I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me through their message. I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.

It reads like Jesus is praying only for those who believe.

Also, in Hebrews 7:24-25 we read:
But because Jesus lives forever, his priesthood lasts forever. Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf.

So it seems that his prayers are only for those who believe. I would expect that even those who only hold to the foreknowledge of God would agree that the text indicates only prayer for those who believe.

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Actually no I would have to disagree. Note the words "I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message" to me that indicates He prays for those unbelievers who will in the future come to Him, those that did believe the gospel message. Since most people that would trust in Christ had not been born yet they could not be considered believers in Christ could they. No one is born as a believer are they? But when they trust in Christ they receive the gift of eternal life.

I agree with Heb 7:24-25 but those verses do not say He only prays for believers. What it does say is that He intercedes for those that believe, those who draw near to God through Him. When Satan accuses believers Christ stands as our advocate and pleads our case.as it were.