Uh no, reasonable people interpret it differently. I disagree with the reformed position but their view is not unreasonable. A bit of humility in our own views goes along way. Attacking others for theirs gets no one anywhere.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Romans 9:11, A calling, not one's works, precedes the election.
- Thread starter 37818
- Start date
Uh no, reasonable people interpret it differently. I disagree with the reformed position but their view is not unreasonable. A bit of humility in our own views goes along way. Attacking others for theirs gets no one anywhere.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Okay
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Its illogical to you, which is fine.
37818
Well-Known Member
Well, two things. 1) Ephesians 1:4, "He has chosen" is not the election. 2) That choosing is before any faith. Since it is before time, the argument can and is made the election is unconditional.
I contend that the election being a result of God's gift, being received as a gift is the condition.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
The feeling is mutual
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
My brother here, of secondary source renown, goes through some of the Attributes of God and says that they are intimately associated with
Eternal Election, and that therefore,.....(?)..."LOGICALLY",
given that to be the case,
he concludes that those who deny Eternal Election are...
(practical, logical, theological) "Atheists."
....because, they are, in effect, "denying the Attributes of God".
So, are you ready for me to call you an Atheist, through him, today?
I'm just not wanting you to take it personally.
That is based on, if what he is saying is true, then we'll think about it...
if there's any practical, logical, or theologically coordinated coalescence to it.
That's the thing he concludes here and I left it in,
just so you could see his line of reasoning.
Breeeaathhhee... Hey, you guys hit me with all kinds of rejecting stuff
upside my head, all the time. It's just a quote.
"ELECTION IS ETERNAL."
"By this we mean that Election is without actual origin.
"Election always has been, just as God always has been.
1. PROOFS STATED.
(1) The Immutability of God.
"By this we mean that the Nature, Attributes, and Will of God
are exempt from all change . . .
"All change must be for better or worse.
"But God is Absolute Perfection, and no change for the better is possible.
Change to worse would be equally inconsistent with Perfection"
(Augustus Hopkins Strong, D.D., LL.D.
President and Professor of Biblical Theology
in the Rochester Theological Seminary.
Systematic Theology, 3436 pages.).
"Because God has always possessed All Knowledge and All Power
there can be no occasion of change in Him.
(For scriptural proof and further discussion of God's Immutability;
see the chapter on "The Nature and Attributes of God.")
The Immutability of God teaches us that
whatever God wills at any time, He always has willed.
"There can be no more a new thought,
a new intent, or a new purpose in God,
than there can be a new God" (Ness).
"Consequently when God saves a man,
He must always have intended and purposed to save him.
"That purpose and intent to save him
involves an Election of him to Salvation.
"Hence Election is Eternal.
"To affirm otherwise is to deny the Immutability of God.
(2) The Foreknowledge of God.
"Rom. 8:29 asserts that God Foreknew those whom He saves.
"This Foreknowledge involved a purpose to save these.
And this purpose to save them involved Election.
"Did this Foreknowledge have a beginning?
If so, then there was a time when God was not Omniscient and,
hence, not Perfect and Infinite.
"Without Perfection and Infinity, there can be no God.
"Therefore the Foreknowledge of God is Eternal,
and, consequently, Election is Eternal;
because Election is involved in Foreknowledge, as pointed out above.
"Thus we see how deleterious the teaching
that Election takes place in time.
(And here it is: the Hellfire and Brimstone Baptist Preacher's Take
"Any denier of the Eternity of Election is logically an Atheist.
He really has no God; for having logically denied the Immutability,
Perfection, and Infinity of God,
he has theoretically robbed Him of His Divinity."
"Yet those who teach the Eternity of Election
are accused of raising new tests of fellowship.
(3) Plain Scripture Statements.
"We appeal here to the two following passages:
"Even as He chose us in Him
before the foundation of the world", (Eph. 1:4).
"God chose you from the beginning", (2 Thess. 2:13).
"That which took place before the foundation of the world,
took place before the beginning of time:
for in the beginning of time the world was created (Gen. 1:1).
The first passage above, then, definitely puts Election in Eternity.
"Even as He chose us in Him
before the foundation of the world", (Eph. 1:4).
"The second passage means that ever since the beginning
our Election has been a Completed Act of God.
"God chose you from the beginning", (2 Thess. 2:13).
"Thus Election took place before the beginning, and, since in Eternity,
there is no before or after, there never was a time when Election
had not taken place.
"This is the meaning of Eternal."
"Before passing we wish to point out a few other passages
which are a death knell to the infidel theory
that Election and Salvation take place at the same time.
(1) "All that the Father giveth me shall come unto me" (John 6:87).
"It is manifest that this passage represents the Father's giving of people to the Son as preceding their coming to the Son. The Father's Act of giving people to the Son (by which is here meant the Divine Efficacy in bringing them into the actual possession of the Son through Repentance and Faith, the verb "giveth" being in the present tense) involves an Election of those thus given, since all are not given.
"And since this giving precedes Salvation,
then Election must precede Salvation.
"This giving, of course, proves the Eternity of Election in the light of the Immutability of God.
"But we are here concerned only with showing
that Election precedes Salvation.
"The Divine Efficacy in bringing men to Christ is alluded to
in John 6:44,65, and Eph. 1:19,20.
(2) "As many as were Ordained to Eternal Life believed" (Acts 13:48).
This passage puts Ordination to Eternal Life before Faith,
and, consequently, before Salvation.
"This Ordination to Eternal Life involves Election on the same grounds that the giving of the former passage involves Election. So far as the form of the Greek word is concerned, it could be either middle or passive; but the preponderance of scholarly opinion considers it as being definitely passive.
"Thus Hackett gives the translation: "As many as were appointed unto eternal life believed," and then adds: "This is the only translation the philology of the passage allows."
"Further Hackett says: "Some translate the Greek participle (tetagmenoi) disposed, inclined; but this term as passive, though it may signify disposed externally--as e. g., drawn up in military order- was not used of an act of the mind."
"Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown's commentary makes this significant comment on the words under consideration: ". . . cannot . . . be interpreted of anything lower than this, that a divine ordination to eternal life is the cause, not the effect, of any man's believing."
"Some have tried to turn the passage around and make it read: "As many as believed were ordained to eternal life," which is the way it would have to read in order to even permit the interpretation that election and salvation take place at the same time. But the Greek construction will not allow this transposition.
"Thayer says the passage refers to
"as many as were appointed to obtain eternal life, or to,
whom God had Decreed Eternal Life."
(3) "God chose you . . . unto salvation", (2 Thess. 2:13).
"Since men are chosen or elected "unto salvation",
their Election must precede salvation.
"This is manifest to all except a certain class of Arminians
who are incapable of understanding plain English."
37818
Well-Known Member
The written word of God teaches no such thing as "Eternal Election."My brother here, of secondary source renown, goes through some of the Attributes of God and says that they are intimately associated with
Eternal Election, and that therefore,.....(?)..."LOGICALLY",
given that to be the case,
he concludes that those who deny Eternal Election are...
(practical, logical, theological) "Atheists."
....because, they are, in effect, "denying the Attributes of God".
So, are you ready for me to call you an Atheist, through him, today?
I'm just not wanting you to take it personally.
That is based on, if what he is saying is true, then we'll think about it...
if there's any practical, logical, or theologically coordinated coalescence to it.
That's the thing he concludes here and I left it in,
just so you could see his line of reasoning.
Breeeaathhhee... Hey, you guys hit me with all kinds of rejecting stuff
upside my head, all the time. It's just a quote.
"ELECTION IS ETERNAL."
"By this we mean that Election is without actual origin.
"Election always has been, just as God always has been.
1. PROOFS STATED.
(1) The Immutability of God.
"By this we mean that the Nature, Attributes, and Will of God
are exempt from all change . . .
"All change must be for better or worse.
"But God is Absolute Perfection, and no change for the better is possible.
Change to worse would be equally inconsistent with Perfection"
(Augustus Hopkins Strong, D.D., LL.D.
President and Professor of Biblical Theology
in the Rochester Theological Seminary.
Systematic Theology, 3436 pages.).
"Because God has always possessed All Knowledge and All Power
there can be no occasion of change in Him.
(For scriptural proof and further discussion of God's Immutability;
see the chapter on "The Nature and Attributes of God.")
The Immutability of God teaches us that
whatever God wills at any time, He always has willed.
"There can be no more a new thought,
a new intent, or a new purpose in God,
than there can be a new God" (Ness).
"Consequently when God saves a man,
He must always have intended and purposed to save him.
"That purpose and intent to save him
involves an Election of him to Salvation.
"Hence Election is Eternal.
"To affirm otherwise is to deny the Immutability of God.
(2) The Foreknowledge of God.
"Rom. 8:29 asserts that God Foreknew those whom He saves.
"This Foreknowledge involved a purpose to save these.
And this purpose to save them involved Election.
"Did this Foreknowledge have a beginning?
If so, then there was a time when God was not Omniscient and,
hence, not Perfect and Infinite.
"Without Perfection and Infinity, there can be no God.
"Therefore the Foreknowledge of God is Eternal,
and, consequently, Election is Eternal;
because Election is involved in Foreknowledge, as pointed out above.
"Thus we see how deleterious the teaching
that Election takes place in time.
(And here it is: the Hellfire and Brimstone Baptist Preacher's Take
"Any denier of the Eternity of Election is logically an Atheist.
He really has no God; for having logically denied the Immutability,
Perfection, and Infinity of God,
he has theoretically robbed Him of His Divinity."
"Yet those who teach the Eternity of Election
are accused of raising new tests of fellowship.
(3) Plain Scripture Statements.
"We appeal here to the two following passages:
"Even as He chose us in Him
before the foundation of the world", (Eph. 1:4).
"God chose you from the beginning", (2 Thess. 2:13).
"That which took place before the foundation of the world,
took place before the beginning of time:
for in the beginning of time the world was created (Gen. 1:1).
The first passage above, then, definitely puts Election in Eternity.
"Even as He chose us in Him
before the foundation of the world", (Eph. 1:4).
"The second passage means that ever since the beginning
our Election has been a Completed Act of God.
"God chose you from the beginning", (2 Thess. 2:13).
"Thus Election took place before the beginning, and, since in Eternity,
there is no before or after, there never was a time when Election
had not taken place.
"This is the meaning of Eternal."
"Before passing we wish to point out a few other passages
which are a death knell to the infidel theory
that Election and Salvation take place at the same time.
(1) "All that the Father giveth me shall come unto me" (John 6:87).
"It is manifest that this passage represents the Father's giving of people to the Son as preceding their coming to the Son. The Father's Act of giving people to the Son (by which is here meant the Divine Efficacy in bringing them into the actual possession of the Son through Repentance and Faith, the verb "giveth" being in the present tense) involves an Election of those thus given, since all are not given.
"And since this giving precedes Salvation,
then Election must precede Salvation.
"This giving, of course, proves the Eternity of Election in the light of the Immutability of God.
"But we are here concerned only with showing
that Election precedes Salvation.
"The Divine Efficacy in bringing men to Christ is alluded to
in John 6:44,65, and Eph. 1:19,20.
(2) "As many as were Ordained to Eternal Life believed" (Acts 13:48).
This passage puts Ordination to Eternal Life before Faith,
and, consequently, before Salvation.
"This Ordination to Eternal Life involves Election on the same grounds that the giving of the former passage involves Election. So far as the form of the Greek word is concerned, it could be either middle or passive; but the preponderance of scholarly opinion considers it as being definitely passive.
"Thus Hackett gives the translation: "As many as were appointed unto eternal life believed," and then adds: "This is the only translation the philology of the passage allows."
"Further Hackett says: "Some translate the Greek participle (tetagmenoi) disposed, inclined; but this term as passive, though it may signify disposed externally--as e. g., drawn up in military order- was not used of an act of the mind."
"Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown's commentary makes this significant comment on the words under consideration: ". . . cannot . . . be interpreted of anything lower than this, that a divine ordination to eternal life is the cause, not the effect, of any man's believing."
"Some have tried to turn the passage around and make it read: "As many as believed were ordained to eternal life," which is the way it would have to read in order to even permit the interpretation that election and salvation take place at the same time. But the Greek construction will not allow this transposition.
"Thayer says the passage refers to
"as many as were appointed to obtain eternal life, or to,
whom God had Decreed Eternal Life."
(3) "God chose you . . . unto salvation", (2 Thess. 2:13).
"Since men are chosen or elected "unto salvation",
their Election must precede salvation.
"This is manifest to all except a certain class of Arminians
who are incapable of understanding plain English."
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Reasonable people may hold the calvinist view but that does not make it right. Are we just to stand by and say nothing?
Please note I am not attacking the person just the theological view that they are presenting. Is it a reasonable view to say one is saved, "in Christ", before the foundation of the world? I do think we should confront others over their views when the views expressed do not agree with scripture.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Did I tell you that:
Let's think about the subjects of Effectual Calling as being those
whom God Calls by His Grace to His Eternal Glory
(as in, I Peter 5:10a, "But the God of all Grace,
Who hath Called us unto His Eternal Glory by Christ Jesus".)
and are those who were Chosen, from Eternity Past:
"Whom He did Predestinate, them He also Called" (Romans 8:30).
In Election, they that were Chosen from Eternity, are Called in Time;
and they that are Called in Time, were Chosen in Christ
before the foundation of the world (Eternity Past).
The "Vessels of Mercy, afore Prepared unto Glory" are explained
and described as being those whom God has Called;
not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles (Rom. 9:23, 24).
They are those who are in Christ, and Secured in Him;
because they are Called according to the Grace Given them
in Christ Jesus before the World began.
And as Grace was Given them so early, as from Eternity Past,
they in some sense, must then have a being in Him;
which they have through being Chosen in Him,
and thereby coming into His hands,
they are Secured and Preserved in Him,
in consequence of which they are Called by an Effectual Calling of Grace.
This gives us;
The Standing Order of"
1.) Eternal Election,
2.) Preservation of the Elect before Salvation,
3.) The Effectual Calling of the Elect,
4.) and the Salvation of the Elect in Time,
as put here by the apostle Jude 1;
1.) "To them that are Sanctified by God the Father";
that are Set Apart by Him in Eternal Election;
"Whom He did Predestinate", (Romans 8:30a).
2.) "and Preserved in Christ Jesus";
as they are put into Jesus' Hands
by that Act of Grace in Eternal Election,
3.) "and Called", in Time, by an Effectual Calling,
"them He also Called", (Romans 8:30b),
as, again, we see in I Peter 5:10a,
"But the God of all Grace, Who hath Called us",
to the foregoing Act of Grace in Salvation,
4.) They are those who are then Redeemed by Christ.
"unto His Eternal Glory by Christ Jesus".
(1.) "The Vessels of Mercy, which"
"He had Afore Prepared unto Glory,
24; "Even us, (3.) whom He hath Called", (Romans 9:23b, 24a).
...
(1) God's Foreknowledge of those He Saves.
Rom. 8:29 asserts God's Foreknowledge of those He Saves. And since God Foreknew those whom He Saves, His Eternal Election of them could not have been mere class Election. To Elect a class with full Knowledge beforehand as to who will compose that class is equal to an individual Election of each one in that specific class.
(2) The fact that the names of the Elect were written in the book of life.
That the names of the Elect were written in the book of life in Eternity Past is proved by Rev. 17:8, which reads: "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell an the earth shall wonder, they whose names hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come."
This passage, in speaking of those whose names were not written in the book of life, distinctly implies that there were some whose names were written in the book of life "from the foundation of the world."
"From the foundation of the world," says Justin A. Smith, "is the New Testament mode of representing what took place in the remote past, before time, measured in the periods of this world, had existence", i.e.,
Eternity Past.
(An American Commentary on the New Testament).
This writing of the names of the elect in the book of life certainly makes
Eternal Election individual and personal.
(3) The fact that God Saves people as individuals.
The Immutability of God, as we have indicated already, binds us to believe that God Eternally Purposed to do everything He does. Therefore, since He Saves people as individuals, He must have an Eternal Purpose to Save them as individuals.
This Eternal Purpose is equal to Election, and thus Election is proved to be individual and Eternal. All of these arguments show also that Election in no sense had respect to all men. It pertains only to those whom God actually Saves. All others He passed by, leaving them to suffer the Just Penalty of their sins in Hell.
ETERNAL ELECTION INCLUDES ALL THAT EVER WILL BE SAVED.
Some have the idea that Election includes only so many in every generation as necessary to guarantee that the Gospel will be believed and proclaimed. Others have the notion that, in addition to the Elect, room must be made for the "whosoever wills."
That Election includes all that ever will be saved is certain, because,
1. GOD'S IMMUTABILITY PROVES
THE ETERNAL ELECTION of ALL THAT WILL EVER BE SAVED.
Man, in his natural condition, is unable to come to Christ. Cf. Jer. 17:9; Prov. 4:23; Job 14:4; Jer. 18:23; John 12:39,40; Rom. 8:7,8; 2 Cor. 2:14. The ability to come to Christ, therefore, is Divinely Given, as stated in John 6:65.
Hence none can come to Christ and be saved except those to whom God imparts the ability to come.
Now we have previously noted that the Immutability of God
teaches us that whatever God does at any time
He must always have Purposed to do.
Consequently, in Eternity, He Purposed to Give the ability
to come to Christ to all that He actually Gives it to in Time.
This Eternal Purpose is equal to Election. And since none can come
except those to whom this ability is Given, and them
were all included in the Purpose of God, which is equal to Election;
it follows that none will ever be saved except the Elect.
The elect and the "whosoever-wills" are one,
since none can will to turn to Christ until God works in them to will.
2. GOD'S OMNISCIENCE PROVES
THE ETERNAL ELECTION of ALL THAT WILL EVER BE SAVED.
Salvation is of the Lord. Since God is Omniscient,
He Knew just whom He would Save. This Knowledge
involved a Purpose to save them. This Purpose,
as we have remarked before, equals Election.
Thus Election includes all that ever will be saved,
because it includes all that God Knew He would Save.
3. THE FACT THAT NONE EXCEPT THE ELECT
WILL ENTER NEW JERUSALEM PROVES
THE ETERNAL ELECTION of ALL THAT WILL EVER BE SAVED.
Rev. 21:27 tells us who the inhabitants of New Jerusalem
will be- "only they that are written in the Lambs' book of life."
We have seen that the writing of names in the book of life
took place in the remote past, before the beginning of time,
in Eternity Past, as we know it, and that it is, therefore,
equivalent to Eternal Election.
Then The New Jerusalem will be inhabited by the Elect only.
If others are saved, they had better carry a tent with them;
because they will have to camp outside of New Jerusalem.
Only the Eternally Elected will get on the inside.
37818
Well-Known Member
No.
Romans 9:11, that election had a calling from God. Not some supposed election.
In Matthew 22:14, For many are called, but few are chosen. . . . Where more are called than the few who are elect. Then there is 2 Peter 1:10, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: . . . To make sure of them. The problem is the Calvinist supposed "uncoditional" elections. Romans 9:11 to show even that election had prior call.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
In Calvinism there is an election of salvation and an election of reprobation, both being unconditional. According to Calvinism, God determines the destiny of both the saved and the lost without any consideration of their faith or unbelief. “… some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of those ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or death.” Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion iii, xxi, sec. 5,
In Calvinism God gets as much blame for reprobation / damnation as He does credit for election / salvation. In the case of the elect, God chose to save them. In the case of the reprobate, God chose to exclude them from salvation, that is, by definition, to include them in damnation. A consistent Calvinist traces reprobation to God in the same way that he traces election to God.
In the LBCF Chapter 3 OF GOD’S DECREE
“ Paragraph 3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,...”
Paragraph 4. These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
So we see that the exact number of those that can trust in God and be saved is set. So the flip side is that the exact number of those that cannot trust in God so as to be saved is also set. So you have to ask what effect does ones sin have on the final destination if that has already been decided prior to your birth.
So then how is this a just condemnation as we see in
In the LBCF Chapter 3 OF GOD’S DECREE
“ Paragraph 3. “... others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation,”
But we are all sinners so what does God under calvinism base His choice on if not an arbitrary one. But if it is an arbitrary one then why does He not save all or at least the majority of humanity since His stated desire is that all come to repentance.
So if God is not arbitrary, which would call His character into question, there must be something else that God bases His choice on.
In Calvinism God gets as much blame for reprobation / damnation as He does credit for election / salvation. In the case of the elect, God chose to save them. In the case of the reprobate, God chose to exclude them from salvation, that is, by definition, to include them in damnation. A consistent Calvinist traces reprobation to God in the same way that he traces election to God.
In the LBCF Chapter 3 OF GOD’S DECREE
“ Paragraph 3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,...”
Paragraph 4. These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
So we see that the exact number of those that can trust in God and be saved is set. So the flip side is that the exact number of those that cannot trust in God so as to be saved is also set. So you have to ask what effect does ones sin have on the final destination if that has already been decided prior to your birth.
So then how is this a just condemnation as we see in
In the LBCF Chapter 3 OF GOD’S DECREE
“ Paragraph 3. “... others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation,”
But we are all sinners so what does God under calvinism base His choice on if not an arbitrary one. But if it is an arbitrary one then why does He not save all or at least the majority of humanity since His stated desire is that all come to repentance.
So if God is not arbitrary, which would call His character into question, there must be something else that God bases His choice on.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Time to put away the crayons on this one.
"The date of election is now considered further. And certain it is, that it was before men were born; "The children not being yet born—that the purpose of God, according to election, might stand, (Rom. 9:11) nor can there be any difficulty in admitting this;
"Because if there is none in admitting that a person may be chosen and appointed to an office before he is born, as there can be none, since God has asserted it of Jeremiah; "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest out of the womb I sanctified thee", or set thee apart, "and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations", (Jer. 1:5) then there can be none in admitting that a person so early may be chosen to grace and glory. And this also is before the new birth, or before calling;
"Because calling is the fruit and effect of election; the apostle says of the Thessalonians, "God hath from the beginning chosen you unto salvation", (2 Thess. 2:13) not from the beginning of the preaching of the gospel to them, or of the coming of that unto them; for that may come to, and be preached among a people, but not to their profit; may be without success, yea, be the savour of death unto death, (Heb. 4:2; 2 Cor. 2:16) and when the gospel first came to the Thessalonians, and was preached among them, some believed, and others did not; yea, the Bereans are preferred unto them, for their ready reception of the word;
"indeed, to some at Thessalonica, it came not in word only, but in power, and in the Holy Ghost; and which was an evidence of their election, and by which they might know it. But then this was only a manifestation of their election;
"that itself was previous to the gospel's coming to them, and its operation on them;
It was displayed therein, and thereby; but it commenced before; (see Acts 17: 1-4, 11; 1 Thess. 1:4, 5)
"nor was the choice of them from the beginning of their conversion, or when they were effectually called by the gospel; for that, as has been observed, is the effect and evidence of election;
"election is that according to which calling is, and therefore must be before it; "whom he did predestinate, them he also called" (Rom. 8:30; 2 Tim. 1:9).
"Nor is this phrase, from the beginning, to be understood of the beginning of time, or of the creation; as in (John 8:44; 1 John 3:8) for though election began to operate and display itself in the distinct seeds of the woman, and of the serpent, in Abel and Cain, the immediate posterity of the first man, and the distinction has continued ever since;
"yet the thing itself which makes this distinction, or is the ground of it, was long before; to which may be added, that this phrase is expressive of eternity; "I was set up from everlasting; from the beginning; or ever the earth was", (Prov. 8:23) that is, before the world began, even from all eternity;
"as its being inclosed by such phrases as express the same shows: and in this sense is it to be taken in the text in the Thessalonians; and it is in so many words affirmed by the apostle, that this choice of men to holiness and happiness, was made "in Christ before the foundation of the world", (Eph. 1:4) and elsewhere it is said, that the book of life of the Lamb, in which the names of God's elect are set down, and the names of others left out, was written as early (Rev. 13:8 17:8).
"And that this act of election is an eternal act, or from eternity, may be concluded,
1.) From the foreknowledge of God, which is eternal;
"God from all eternity foreknew all persons and things; there is nothing in time but what was known to him from eternity (Acts 15:18).
"Now men are elected according to the foreknowledge of God; and "whom he did foreknow he did predestinate", (1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29) wherefore, as the foreknowledge of God is eternal, the choice he makes upon it must be so too;
"and especially as this foreknowledge is not a bare prescience of persons and things, but what has love and affection to the objects of it joined unto it: wherefore,
2.) The eternity of election may be concluded from the love of God to his people;
"Because it is to that it is owing; "electio praesupponit dilectionem" election presupposes love; hence the apostle sets the character of being "beloved of the Lord" first, to the Thessalonians being "chosen" by him to "salvation", (2 Thess. 2:13) it is the immediate effect of love, and is inseparably connected with it;
"yea, is expressed by it; "Jacob have I loved" (Rom. 9:13).
"Now the love of God is an everlasting love; not only endures to all eternity, but was from all eternity: God loved Christ, as he affirms, before the foundation of the world;
"and in the same place he says, his Father loved his people as he loved him, (John 17:23, 24).
3.) It may be argued from the covenant of grace, which is an everlasting covenant, from everlasting to everlasting; in which the goings of Christ as Mediator were of old, and promises were made before the world began; and grants of grace were made, and blessings of grace provided as early;
"and which covenant was made with the "chosen" of God; with Christ, the chosen Head, and with his people, as chosen in him; so that if this covenant was from everlasting, and made with chosen ones in Christ, their representative, then the choice of them in him must be as early, (2 Sam. 23:5; Titus 1:2; 2 Tim. 1:9; Ps. 89:3; Mic. 5:2) and nothing is more clear than that he was set up as Mediator of this covenant from everlasting;
"and that his people were chosen in him, their covenant Head, before the foundation of the world (Prov. 8:22; Eph. 1:4).
4.) This appears from the early preparation of grace and glory: grace was given them in Christ before the world was, and they blessed so soon with spiritual blessings in him;
"as they are a people aforeprepared for glory, that is, in the purpose of God; so glory is the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world;
"which is no other than a destination, or rather a predestination of that for them, and of them to that (2 Tim. 1:9; Eph. 1:3, 4 Rom. 9:23; Matthew 25:34).
5.) From the nature of the decrees of God in general, it must appear that this is eternal; for if God's decrees in general are eternal, as has been proved from his foreknowledge of whatever comes to pass;
"which is founded upon the certainty of his decrees, that so they shall be;
"and from his immutability, which could not be established if any new thoughts and resolutions arose in him, or new decrees in time were made by him;
"and therefore it may be reckoned a sure point, that such a special decree as this, respecting so important an affair as the salvation of all his people, as well as his own glory, must be eternal: and, indeed, the whole scheme of man's salvation by Christ, the "fellowship of the mystery" hid in him, in which there is such an amazing display of the wisdom of God, is "according to the eternal purpose, which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord", (Eph. 3:9-11) and which is no other than his purpose according to election, or respecting that."
from: 2. Of the Special Decrees of God, Relating to Rational Creatures, Angels, and Men; and Particularly of Election.
37818
Well-Known Member
A waste of time.
TLDR
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Romans 9:11, A calling, not one's works,
precedes the election.
If I had any idea for sure what your O.P. is supposed to mean,
I'd sware that it must violate the first rule of interpretation,
where whatever presupposition your stating there clearly contradicts the scripture that's cited in it,
no matter what it actually is saying, otherwise.
Then, why in the world did God wright them in the Bible do you think?...
Ummm.
Ummm.
...
I can't help but wonder what this is all about....
Again. If you know what I'm saying, then what do you suppose
that this is supposed to be trying to say...
And, then I can try, but I really don't have a clue
what this is supposed to be trying to say...
Meanwhile, for real.
I can't help but wonder what this is supposed to be trying to say...
Anything? I can't help but wonder if this is supposed to be trying to say...
Anything?
Got me. I can't help it. I still have to just try and wonder
what this is supposed to be trying to say...
Looks like a couple of prepositions this time though!!! Got that!!!
Whew?!!?
I can't tell if we are literally ignorant or not.
For the life of me,
I can't even figure anything out about what that is supposed to be saying,
at all....
I'm tellin'!!
Beats me. I really do wonder what this is supposed to be trying to say, though.
You know the drill, by now.
Alas. I can't help but wonder what this is supposed to be trying to say, too
Maybe it's me.
Anyone? Am I just supposed to sit and wonder again what???
Anyone?
Really. Wonder what this one is talking about, if anything...?????
And there we have... I dunno...?
What on earth is this trying to say...???
I'm at a loss. And this is trying to say...what exactly?
Or? Ah? What? O.K., now, what could this be about, this time??
This is starting to creep me out.
And now for something completely different...?
Another mystery...
Then, come to find out:
"If a commenter responds to a post with "tl;dr,"
it expresses an expectation to be entertained
without needing to pay attention or to think."
TLDR
Well, let's Worship the Lord, for a change!
GLORY!!!
Alright, I got one there that time.
I was able to Google it and figure one out, finally.
Blimey. Nicetalkingtoyouhaveareallynicedayman.
precedes the election.
If I had any idea for sure what your O.P. is supposed to mean,
I'd sware that it must violate the first rule of interpretation,
where whatever presupposition your stating there clearly contradicts the scripture that's cited in it,
no matter what it actually is saying, otherwise.
Then, why in the world did God wright them in the Bible do you think?...
Ummm.
Ummm.
...
I can't help but wonder what this is all about....
Again. If you know what I'm saying, then what do you suppose
that this is supposed to be trying to say...
And, then I can try, but I really don't have a clue
what this is supposed to be trying to say...
Meanwhile, for real.
I can't help but wonder what this is supposed to be trying to say...
Anything? I can't help but wonder if this is supposed to be trying to say...
Anything?
Got me. I can't help it. I still have to just try and wonder
what this is supposed to be trying to say...
Looks like a couple of prepositions this time though!!! Got that!!!
Whew?!!?
I can't tell if we are literally ignorant or not.
For the life of me,
I can't even figure anything out about what that is supposed to be saying,
at all....
I'm tellin'!!
Beats me. I really do wonder what this is supposed to be trying to say, though.
You know the drill, by now.
Alas. I can't help but wonder what this is supposed to be trying to say, too
Maybe it's me.
Anyone? Am I just supposed to sit and wonder again what???
Anyone?
Really. Wonder what this one is talking about, if anything...?????
And there we have... I dunno...?
What on earth is this trying to say...???
I'm at a loss. And this is trying to say...what exactly?
Or? Ah? What? O.K., now, what could this be about, this time??
This is starting to creep me out.
And now for something completely different...?
Another mystery...
Then, come to find out:
"If a commenter responds to a post with "tl;dr,"
it expresses an expectation to be entertained
without needing to pay attention or to think."
TLDR
Well, let's Worship the Lord, for a change!
GLORY!!!
Alright, I got one there that time.
I was able to Google it and figure one out, finally.
Blimey. Nicetalkingtoyouhaveareallynicedayman.
37818
Well-Known Member
write what?
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
I found this great stuff. Much, much more there. Several "rules".
The site has a cool name, too; "LetGodBeTrue"!
We'll go with that for now.
Hermeneutics: How to Read
and Understand the Bible.
RULE #1: There are no contradictions in the Bible.
- No part of the Bible is to be separated from or against the Bible’s overall teaching (II Pet 1:20).
- This rather plain and very direct text is a great blessing from God, yet rarely expounded.
- Prophecy. An inspired utterance flowing from the revelation and impulse of the Spirit.
- Private. Separate, alone, individual, personal, peculiar, particular, or special.
- No portion of the Holy Spirit’s revelation in Scripture can be separated from the rest to stand alone for some individual, personal, peculiar, particular, or special interpretation.
- Our interpretation of the text is proven clearly by the immediate context (II Peter 1:21).
- There are no personal or peculiar interpretations of Scripture, because the singular Holy Spirit and not the wills of plural writers gave what was written.
- All Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit (II Timothy 3:16), even though it may have been written by a number of men. Since the Holy Spirit is the singular Author of the Bible, then it cannot and does not disagree internally.
- No writer intended a personal or private interpretation, and no reader should find one.
- Though God the Holy Spirit used all sorts of men with various backgrounds writing with different styles by various literary forms, there is only one Author and one constant, certain, absolute form of doctrine taught from beginning to end of the Bible.
- This is easily the first and chief rule to follow when interpreting Scripture. Start with it always.
- We are expressly told to know this first when heeding the more sure word (II Pet 1:20).
- The study of any text should always be limited to those possible solutions remaining after excluding all impossible solutions failing this rule.
- We don’t create truth from any text. We enter the text with truth established.
- Regardless of the difficulty of the words, we exclude all ideas contrary to truth.
- If the impression from reading the words is some new or false doctrine, reject it!
- The single greatest restraint on misinterpretation of Scripture is this rule to make every individual passage agree in doctrine with the overall teaching of the Bible.
- If any other rule of interpretation is placed before this one, we run into severe problems.
- We contradict the Holy Spirit’s instruction that this rule is to be applied first.
- We open ourselves up to every possible interpretation with new and crazy ideas.
- We destroy the value of the lesser rules, which must be subordinate to this one.
- This rule properly applied will force you to seek other rules to determine the positive sense of a text; for by itself, it only rejects interpretations that cannot possible be true.
37818
Well-Known Member
Does not belong here. Should have thread of its own. And its sub texts are problematic.
Its first error is rule one, "RULE #1: There are no contradictions in the Bible."
It had better have read, There are no contradictions in the word of God.
Last edited:
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Romans 9 and 9:11, specifically, for one thing.
God knew who the heirs of His Covenant were, including
the "child of the promise".
from Genesis 18:10:
"I shall come back to you at this season, and Sarah will have a son."
Not all of Isaac's descendants were heirs of the covenant. Of the twins born to Isaac's wife Rebecca, only the second twin Jacob was to be the "child of the promise" as Isaac had been "the child of the promise."
This son was renamed Israel by Yahweh he became the father of 12 sons... the 12 sons Israel became the heirs of the Covenant and the physical fathers of the 12 Tribes of Israel who received the Covenant of Yahweh at Sinai.
In addition to those who were physical descendants, any Gentile could convert to become a full member of the Covenant people without descending from the Patriarchs [Exodus 12:48] . In King David's genealogy there were 3 Gentile women: Tamar, Rahab, and Ruth.
In affirming that it is God who elects the one who will carry on the Covenant, Paul quotes in Romans 9:8 from Genesis 21:12: "Isaac is the one through whom your Name will be carried on." And then adds in Romans 9:8 "that is, it is not by being children through physical descent that people become children of God; it is the children of the promise that are counted as the heirs." Then Paul quotes the actual words of the promise to Abraham concerning the "child of promise" from Genesis 18:10: "I shall come back to you at this season, and Sarah will have a son."
Yahweh not only appointed the "child of promise" but orchestrated the birth through a supernatural event* just as in an even more supernatural act Yahweh would orchestrate the birth of another Son in which the covenants of the Patriarchs and the Sinai Covenant would be fulfilled. [*note: Sarah was 90 years old and long past the age of childbearing].
Continuing in his theme of divine election Paul now uses the example of the sons of Isaac and Rebecca.
Question: Even before her sons were born what did God reveal to this ancestress of Joseph and Mary by quoting both Genesis 25:23 and Malachi 1:2-3?
Answer: Like Isaac this "child of promise," the younger twin Jacob, was chosen by Yahweh before his human birth.
Question: What is Pau's point concerning the election of Jacob over Esau before the birth of the twins?
Answer: The event of this election indicates even more strongly the privilege of divine election because neither child had the opportunity to either merit or to lose the privilege of election. God reversed the natural order of the superior status of the "firstborn" by revealing to the mother that "the elder one will serve the younger."
Paul gives additional emphasis by quoting from the prophet Malachi, one of the last Old Testament prophets [mid 5th century BC; after the return from the Babylonian captivity]:
"I loved Jacob but hated Esau" indicating that the Scriptural proof comes from both the law and the prophets. In the Malachi passage, the prophet assures "Jacob" = Israel, of God's faithful covenant love by pointing out how He protected Israel from her adversary, the descendants of Esau [the Edomites later known as the Idumeans] and confirming God's preference for Israel over Edom [thus Jacob over Esau] in Genesis 25:23.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
When I read this, I see the most glaring contradiction to other scriptures
in direct context, but also within the verse that is being quoted itself.
"the purpose of God according to election might stand,
... of him that calleth;"
"Romans 9:11, A calling,"....
"precedes the election."
I'd sware that it must violate the first rule of interpretation,
where whatever presupposition you are stating there clearly contradicts the scripture that's cited in it, in addition to all those verses surrounding it...
That is, of course, unless, "the word of God hath taken none effect."
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,
that the purpose of God according to election might stand,
not of works, but of him that calleth
"And I know that, just like folks who might like to see the word, "Trinity",
spelled out in the Bible, in black and white, in order to catch onto what it is,
as opposed to a word like, "Godhead", etc. still that is how God chose to say it.
So, therefore, I believe that I know
that you would really prefer to see the words, "Eternally Elected",
when God might be using various other wordings to express that very same thing.
See if you see any, such as;
"According to His Purpose", "Predestinated", "to whom pertaineth the Adoption"
"the children of the Promise", "counted for the Seed",
"the Purpose of God according to Election", etc.
From the previous chapter;
Romans 8:28; "we know that all things work together for good
to them that love God,"
= "them" who were Elected to be Called for God's Purpose
and for Him to work "all things".."together for good" for them, for His Purpose.
28b; "to them who are the called according to his purpose."
= Called for God's Purpose, after being Foreknown,
and Predestined in and by Electing them to be Called.
29. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate
= God Predestined in and by Electing those He Foreknew.
30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:"
= Those God Foreknew and Predestined in and Electing them,
He later Called, during their lifetime and Saved their soul.
30b; "and whom he called, them he also justified:"
= God's Predestined Plan He would Perfectly Accomplish for His Elect.
30c; "and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
= Not only is the Salvation of God's Elect Absolutely Assured,
but their ultimate Glorification, because all of that was God's Purpose to Do.
Romans 8:28; "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Romans 9:
4. "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption,..."
= whom are Elected to be Adopted.
5. "Whose are the fathers..."
= specifically Elected who were Chosen, "Whose are the Father's".
6b; "...they are not all Israel, which are of Israel..."
= Election of some that are Known to God. Not all.
8b; "the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
= Prophecy of Promised Elected seed.
9 "For this is the word of promise..."
= Prophecy that contains Election which insures the Prophecy Will be Fulfilled.
11b; "...that the purpose of God according to election..."
= Election is the Purpose of God, by which God's Purposes are Fulfilled.
12b; "The elder shall serve the younger."
= Election in Prophecy.
13 "As it is written, Jacob have I loved,"
= Election in Prophecy.
"my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4.Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5.Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."
Genesis 25:19-28; Malachi 1:1-5)
6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
Last edited:
37818
Well-Known Member
In all of your rhetoric here, do you or do you not, understand the calling precedes it's election?When I read this, I see the most glaring contradiction to other scriptures
in direct context, but also within the verse that is being quoted itself.
"the purpose of God according to election might stand,
... of him that calleth;"
"Romans 9:11, A calling,"....
"precedes the election."
I'd sware that it must violate the first rule of interpretation,
where whatever presupposition you are stating there clearly contradicts the scripture that's cited in it, in addition to all those verses surrounding it...
That is, of course, unless, "the word of God hath taken none effect."
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,
that the purpose of God according to election might stand,
not of works, but of him that calleth
And I know that, just like folks who might like to see the word, "Trinity",
spelled out in the Bible, in black and white, in order to catch onto what it is,
as opposed to a word like, "Godhead", etc. still that is how God chose to say it.
So, therefore, I believe that I know
that you would really prefer to see the words, "Eternally Elected",
when God might be using various other wordings to express that very same thing.
See if you see any, such as;
"According to His Purpose", "Predestinated", "to whom pertaineth the Adoption"
"the children of the Promise", "counted for the Seed",
"the Purpose of God according to Election", etc.
From the previous chapter;
Romans 8:28; "we know that all things work together for good
to them that love God,"
= "them" who were Elected to be Called for God's Purpose
and for Him to work "all things".."together for good" for them, for His Purpose.
28b; "to them who are the called according to his purpose."
= Called for God's Purpose, after being Foreknown,
and Predestined in and by Electing them to be Called.
29. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate
= God Predestined in and by Electing those He Foreknew.
30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:"
= Those God Foreknew and Predestined in and Electing them,
He later Called, during their lifetime and Saved their soul.
30b; "and whom he called, them he also justified:"
= God's Predestined Plan He would Perfectly Accomplish for His Elect.
30c; "and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
= Not only is the Salvation of God's Elect Absolutely Assured,
but their ultimate Glorification, because all of that was God's Purpose to Do.
Romans 8:28; "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Romans 9:
4. "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption,..."
= whom are Elected to be Adopted.
5. "Whose are the fathers..."
= specifically Elected who were Chosen, "Whose are the Father's".
6b; "...they are not all Israel, which are of Israel..."
= Election of some that are Known to God. Not all.
8b; "the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
= Prophecy of Promised Elected seed.
9 "For this is the word of promise..."
= Prophecy that contains Election which insures the Prophecy Will be Fulfilled.
11b; "...that the purpose of God according to election..."
= Election is the Purpose of God, by which God's Purposes are Fulfilled.
12b; "The elder shall serve the younger."
= Election in Prophecy.
13 "As it is written, Jacob have I loved,"
= Election in Prophecy.
"my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4.Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5.Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."
Genesis 25:19-28; Malachi 1:1-5)
6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth