Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Its calvinism to you, but scripture truth to me friend
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Justification by Faith !
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I don't doubt the sincerity of your position but a statement like that doesn't really shed any light does it? Everybody is looking at the same scripture yet coming up with different conclusions as to what it means.
If we search for "based on (ek) faith we find that translation choice is rather common. Thus you are claiming a text change when another viable translation choice is used for the same original text.
See Romans 3:30, Romans 10:6 and Galatians 3:12.
For Romans 3:30, the ISV, MOUNCE, NABRE, GNT and NCB translated ek as based on.
For Romans 10:6, the ESV, GW, MEV, MOUNCE, NASB, RSV, TLV and VOICE translated ek as based on.
For Galatians 3:12, the CSB, CEB, CEV, EXB, NCB, NCV, NET, and NIV translate ek as based on.
The false charge that I changed the text rather than the translation choice is without merit.
1) Since God chooses people for salvation through (or on the basis of ) faith in the truth, the claim Faith is solely the fruit of the Spirit is false.
2) Justification on the basis of God crediting a lost person's faith as righteousness requires the lost person's faith to be credited before they are justified by the washing of regeneration.
3) Based on God crediting Gentiles faith as righteousness, just as He did to Jews, they too, by faith had their heart purified.
4) When we draw near to God, we, those born anew, do so in the full assurance our steadfast faith provides.
5) Because we trusted in God, the God of Hope will fill us with joy and peace through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Justification is accomplished by the washing of regeneration (being made alive together with Christ) based on God crediting our worthless faith as righteousness and transferring us into Christ spiritually.
The washing of regeneration accomplishes the "circumcision of Christ" where the consequence of our sinful state and our past, present and future sins, are removed, taken out of the way and nailed on the cross so to speak.
See Romans 3:30, Romans 10:6 and Galatians 3:12.
For Romans 3:30, the ISV, MOUNCE, NABRE, GNT and NCB translated ek as based on.
For Romans 10:6, the ESV, GW, MEV, MOUNCE, NASB, RSV, TLV and VOICE translated ek as based on.
For Galatians 3:12, the CSB, CEB, CEV, EXB, NCB, NCV, NET, and NIV translate ek as based on.
The false charge that I changed the text rather than the translation choice is without merit.
1) Since God chooses people for salvation through (or on the basis of ) faith in the truth, the claim Faith is solely the fruit of the Spirit is false.
2) Justification on the basis of God crediting a lost person's faith as righteousness requires the lost person's faith to be credited before they are justified by the washing of regeneration.
3) Based on God crediting Gentiles faith as righteousness, just as He did to Jews, they too, by faith had their heart purified.
4) When we draw near to God, we, those born anew, do so in the full assurance our steadfast faith provides.
5) Because we trusted in God, the God of Hope will fill us with joy and peace through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Justification is accomplished by the washing of regeneration (being made alive together with Christ) based on God crediting our worthless faith as righteousness and transferring us into Christ spiritually.
The washing of regeneration accomplishes the "circumcision of Christ" where the consequence of our sinful state and our past, present and future sins, are removed, taken out of the way and nailed on the cross so to speak.
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You can look at scripture all day, God must give light, understanding of scripture. What you call calvinism, God has convinced me its the Truth of the Gospel, thats just how it is friend.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
The idea that God has a specific plan that was in his mind all along to save his elect I am in agreement with. And I believe that God's plans come about according to his will. Scripture seems to teach that and it also teaches that man acts according to his own will. Notice that the London 1689 and WCF are careful to teach both - that God is sovereign and that man is not coerced to do something against his own will.
This is the basic Augustinian way of looking at these things. But a lot of folks are not willing to accept that you can have it both ways at the same time. They say either man has a degree of freedom that God himself must wait to see what decision will be made or man has no real part in this. And this is actually a fairly logical argument that should not be simply dismissed.
I have no problem with the idea that God is working out his sovereign plan with his intention of saving an elect that he intends to save. But I also think when the gospel is heard by someone it is a true offer that they have absolute scriptural assurance that if they will turn to Christ and believe that they will be saved. The decision they take is a true decision on their part and according to their will.
By taking the Augustinian logic too far you make salvation into an elect person coming to the knowledge he is elect. This obscures the gospel message in my opinion. My opinion is shared by the writers of the great confessions, most Puritans, most Particular Baptists, most modern reformed Baptists and most in between era theologians like Bonar, Charles Hodge, and Spurgeon. Your particular theology is not Calvinism, it is Hyper-Calvinism and is rejected by mainstream Calvinism.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
This in my opinion is a false Gospel, but you entitled to your opinion
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Actually NO it is not. That is just your Hyper Cal take on it. Logically one would not know the gospel until they heard it.
That one can be forgiven of their sins does not equate to them being forgiven of their sins. One is only forgiven by God if and when the person places their trust/faith in Him. If they do not do so then their sins are not forgiven.
When a person actually trusts in God then He justifies them, not before.
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Just as long as everyone understands that this kind of answer does not represent normal Calvinism, then I'm OK with that answer. That you don't seem interested in engaging any of the points of the post says a lot too.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
When the Scriptures speak of justification by faith[Rom 5:1], they are speaking of faith’s welcoming of the finished work of Christ, not of faith’s contributing to it and finalization of it. It is this recognition of Christ and his finished work as our all-sufficient, effectual Substitute and Savior by which our hearts and minds are reconciled to God. Sinners are not judicially acquitted by their faith, but by the blood/death of Christ[Rom 5:9]. We simply receive the knowledge of that pardon[Lk 1:77] and the peace that knowledge brings by faith in Christ [Rom15:13 ] f
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Silverhair
Yes it is, in fact forgiveness of sins is Salvation,
Paul told those same ones in Acts 13:38
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
They preached to them a word of Salvation sent to them Acts 13:26
Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
The forgiven dont have sin imputed and are reckoned righteous, justified
Rom 4:7-9
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Yes it is, in fact forgiveness of sins is Salvation,
Paul told those same ones in Acts 13:38
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
They preached to them a word of Salvation sent to them Acts 13:26
Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
The forgiven dont have sin imputed and are reckoned righteous, justified
Rom 4:7-9
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
The Greek preposition "ek" means out of or out from, and points to the origin of something. Out from faith refers to something based on faith, or more explicitly, based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. And what is that something? Salvation by being transferred into Christ where we undergo the washing of regeneration, rebirth as a new creation, and are then indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Thus all the blessings of salvation including justification can be said to be "based on faith.!"
Romans 1:17, "...But the righteous one will live based on faith." I think walking according to our (credited) faith is in view here rather than salvation's blessings.
Romans 3:30, "since indeed God who will justify the circumcised based on faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one." Here I think the idea is New Covenant faith arises from Old Covenant faith for Jews, and arises without prior faith in God for Gentiles.
Romans 4:16, "For this reason [the promises to Abraham's heirs] is based on faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Romans 5:1, "Therefore, having been justified based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, moreover the righteousness that is based on God crediting their faith as righteousness.
Romans 9:32, "Why? Because they did not pursue it based on faith, but as though they could by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise based on God crediting our faith in Jesus Christ as righteousness might be given to those who believe.
Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified based on the works of the Law but by means of Christ Jesus's faithfulness, even we have believed into Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified based on the faithfulness of Christ and not based on the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no person will be justified.
Galatians 3:8
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles based on God crediting their faith as righteousness, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”
Galatians 3:24
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified based on God crediting our faith as righteousness.
Galatians 5:5
For we through the Spirit, based on God crediting our faith,as righteousness, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
The opening conjunction (gar translated as "for") might better be translated as "The fact is," we through the Spirit....
Now I think the idea of through the Spirit refers to being indwelt. Those who are indwelt are the "we" of the verse. Then we get "out of faith" which is best translated based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, are expectantly waiting for the hope of our righteousness at the second coming of our Lord.
Romans 10:6
But the righteousness that is based on faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down)
Justification is accomplished by the washing of regeneration (being made alive together with Christ) based on God crediting our worthless faith as righteousness and transferring us into Christ spiritually.
The washing of regeneration accomplishes the "circumcision of Christ" where the consequence of our sinful state and our past, present and future sins, are removed, taken out of the way and nailed on the cross so to speak, due to the faithfulness of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.
Romans 1:17, "...But the righteous one will live based on faith." I think walking according to our (credited) faith is in view here rather than salvation's blessings.
Romans 3:30, "since indeed God who will justify the circumcised based on faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one." Here I think the idea is New Covenant faith arises from Old Covenant faith for Jews, and arises without prior faith in God for Gentiles.
Romans 4:16, "For this reason [the promises to Abraham's heirs] is based on faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Romans 5:1, "Therefore, having been justified based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, moreover the righteousness that is based on God crediting their faith as righteousness.
Romans 9:32, "Why? Because they did not pursue it based on faith, but as though they could by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise based on God crediting our faith in Jesus Christ as righteousness might be given to those who believe.
Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified based on the works of the Law but by means of Christ Jesus's faithfulness, even we have believed into Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified based on the faithfulness of Christ and not based on the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no person will be justified.
Galatians 3:8
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles based on God crediting their faith as righteousness, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”
Galatians 3:24
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified based on God crediting our faith as righteousness.
Galatians 5:5
For we through the Spirit, based on God crediting our faith,as righteousness, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
The opening conjunction (gar translated as "for") might better be translated as "The fact is," we through the Spirit....
Now I think the idea of through the Spirit refers to being indwelt. Those who are indwelt are the "we" of the verse. Then we get "out of faith" which is best translated based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, are expectantly waiting for the hope of our righteousness at the second coming of our Lord.
Romans 10:6
But the righteousness that is based on faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down)
Justification is accomplished by the washing of regeneration (being made alive together with Christ) based on God crediting our worthless faith as righteousness and transferring us into Christ spiritually.
The washing of regeneration accomplishes the "circumcision of Christ" where the consequence of our sinful state and our past, present and future sins, are removed, taken out of the way and nailed on the cross so to speak, due to the faithfulness of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
This is true but all I am saying is that the "recognition of Christ and his finished work as our all-sufficient, effectual Substitute and Savior by which our hearts and minds are reconciled to God " is a working definition of saving faith and it is essential, can be called a condition, and occurs in time before an individual can be saved.
You are correct that it contributes nothing meritorious but it is essential on our part or we are not justified.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You seem to finally understand that part but you still seem to think faith is given, or as you say in post # 60 "Faith is begotten and they believe", to the person. It is because of their personal faith, not a given faith, in Christ that one is justified.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
If you condition salvation on your faith, its works salvation,merit quality salvation
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Thats works, merit salvation not Justification by Faith
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You wrong, "Justification by Faith is promised"
Again here is the Promise of the Gospel to Abraham Gal 3:8
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
No conditions friend
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Well BF it seems you have a problem with scripture.
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Faith is not merit, it is a response to the call of God.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The condition is "FAITH", no faith no salvation.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You promoting works salvation friend, Im explaining to you what JBF is.
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