1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Was it Friday?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 37818, Mar 20, 2024.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,848
    Likes Received:
    1,365
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Numbers 28:16-22, And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD. And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten. In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein: But ye shall offer a sacrifice made by fire for a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, and seven lambs of the first year: they shall be unto you without blemish: And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil: three tenth deals shall ye offer for a bullock, and two tenth deals for a ram; A several tenth deal shalt thou offer for every lamb, throughout the seven lambs: And one goat for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you. . . .

    The first day of unleaved bread is still to be the 14th. So the feast only Has 6 days.of the 7 per Deuteronomy 16:8. Per Exodus 12:18.
     
    #101 37818, Mar 26, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2024
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Mark 14:12 did happen on 14 Nisan.

    Mark 14:12 On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed

    When was the Passover killed?

    2 pm if the Passover was Friday, 3 pm if not.

    When was the Passover sacrificed?

    About an hour later.

    When was the meal?

    When evening had come (sunset).


    It ain't rocket science.


    Mark tells us that Jesus sent two disciples (distinguished from the Twelve) ahead around 1pm to 2 pm. Jesus and the Twelve arrived around sunset (when evening had come).

    Early in the morning He was taken to the Roman authorities.

    He was presented before the Jews around 9 am.

    He died around 3pm that Friday.


    What part of that do you not understand?

    For you understand why it is impossible for the crucifixion to have occurred 15 Nisan?
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree. The Passover Sacrifice was made on 14 Nisan, and the meal occurred on 14 Nisan (at sunset). The next sunset would be 15 Nisan. During the feastival they performed sin offerings.

    15 Nisan and 21 Nisan were types of Sabbaths in that they were holy convocations, no work to be done, and a holy assembly conviened.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @37818

    These are things you need to consider:

    1. Why was it important to the Jewish leaders to take care of their "Jesus problem" before 15 Nisan?

    Because the diaspora would be in Jerusalem, not only to observe the festival but also to see Jesus. They did not want to kill Jesus during the festival for fear of a riot.

    2. We know that the Passover was killed, then sacrificed, abs then the priests ate of the Passover....and this occurred at the Temple. And then the people went to their homes and partook of the meal.

    You have all of this happening at sundown. It can't.

    Typically the meal actually begins about an hour before sundown. Work back to time for travel to their homes. Work back to allow the priests to partake. Work back for the ritual sacrifice. Work back for the killing of the sacrifice.

    3. The crucifixion could not happen on 15 Nisan or 21 Nisan or the 7th day Sabbath.

    4. The Sabbath following Christ's death was a high day Sabbath. This means (given the time) either 15 or 21 Nisan fell on that Sabbath



    The only date that makes since for the Crucifixion is Friday 14 Nisan.

    If John wrote in error then Wednesday 14 Nisan could work, but this would mean John was wrong.
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,848
    Likes Received:
    1,365
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It did per Mark 14:17 through Mark 15:41.
    Matthew, Luke and John have some additional details.
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,848
    Likes Received:
    1,365
    Faith:
    Baptist
    They arrested Jesus after the Passover's were eaten.
    But according to Mark 14:12-16 being the 14th, the following day when Jesus was crucified on Thursday being the 15th.
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That is only because you have the dates wrong and will not be persuaded by Scripture.

    Jesus could not be crucified on the Sabbath, on 15 Nisan, or on 21 Nisan.

    Read Leviticus. It was prohibited. Also, the Jewish leadership (and population) would have been otherwise occupied.

    You have your dates wrong.


    Scripture does not give a date, but Scripture does provide a criteria for the date:

    1. Cannot be 15 or 21 Nisan
    2. The Sabbath afterwards must also be a high day (your choice is 15 or 21 Nisan for this season).
    3. Christ sent out two disciples in the early afternoon on 14 Nisan and joined them with rhe Twelve when evening came for the meal (the meal being at sundown).
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, they arrested Jesus after the meal.

    1. Around 1 pm to 2 pm the priests would have sacrificed the passover ("first evening").

    2. About an hour later it would be sacrificed.

    3. The priests would partake (ceremonally).

    4. The Jews would go to where they would eat the passover.

    5. When the evening comes (sunset) the Jews would eat their passover meal.

    Mark tells us:

    1. that at the time the pasdover was being sacrificed (1 pm to 2 pm) Jesus sent two disciples ahead to the upper room.

    2. That when evening came (around sunset) Jesus and the Twelve arrived and they had the meal.

    3. After the meal Jesus went to the Garden and afterwards was arrested.

    4. Early in the morning (probably while still dark) the Jews made their case before the Roman authorities.

    5. Around 9am the Romans presented Jesus to the Jews. They cried "crucify!".

    6. Around 3 pm Jesus died.

    7. Joseph laid Jesus' body in a nearby tomb because the Sabbath was approaching and this Sabbath was also a high day (15 Nisan).

    8. The women followed and observed how the body was laid, returned and prepared the anointment. They rested on rhe Sabbath and went to the tomb early Sunday morning while it was still dark.


    That is a lot of detail in God's Word. It isn't rocket science.

    Your date simply ignores Scripture (it isn't a matter of interpretation, like those who choose 14 Nisan 30 AD interpreting that following Sabbath following on some unknown high day).
     
  9. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,632
    Likes Received:
    461
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You post Mark 14 A LOT. In Thread titled and postings.

    Have you figured out what it's meaning is, yet?

    TUESDAY
    Nisan 13

    Jesus and the twelve disciples come into Jerusalem from Bethany,
    to partake of the Passover meal.

    WEDNESDAY
    Nisan 14

    Preparation day for the annual, not weekly, Sabbath.
    John and Peter were sent ahead of time to locate the place of the meal
    and to make preparations for it (Mark 14.12-16).

    Mark 14.17

    Passover is observed on the 14th of Nisan every year (Leviticus 23.5).
    Jesus and His disciples partook of the Passover
    in the early evening of 14th. This was their Wednesday
    (as if it were our Tuesday night).

    (Jewish Days are calculated from sunset-to-sunset, not midnight-to-midnight.)

    Jesus ate an early-evening Passover meal with His disciples.
    After the meal, the walks with His disciples towards the Mt. of Olives.

    Gethsemane is at the foot of the Mount of Olives, not far from the brook Kidron, and takes its name from a cave there that contained an oil press — thus, Gethsemane.

    Jesus was betrayed by Judas at the olive grove in Gethsemane,
    arrested and brought before the high priest, Caiaphas.

    Trial ends at daybreak.

    In the morning, Jesus was brought before Pilate the governor.

    Jesus was crucified and dies around 3PM.

    Luke 23.44 shows that Jesus died around the ninth hour or approximately 3PM. He would have been buried before sunset because of the approaching Sabbath, for that Sabbath day was a high-day (John 19.31).

    Jesus' body was placed in the tomb at twilight.

    Tomb is guarded and secured by sealing it with a stone.

    THURSDAY
    Nisan 15

    This was the first annual Sabbath or high-day - the first day of Unleavened Bread.

    John 19.31 mentions that the day following Jesus' crucifixion was a high day as opposed to the weekly seventh-day Sabbath.

    The first day of each of the three feasts, Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles, was "a holy convocation", a "sabbath" on which no servile work was to be done. See Lev. 23:7, 24, 35. Cp. Ex. 12:16.

    "That Sabbath" and the "high day" of John 19:31, was the "holy convocation", the first day of the feast, which quite overshadowed the ordinary weekly sabbath.

    It was called by the Jews Yom tov ( = Good day), and this is the greeting on that day throughout Jewry down to the present time.

    This great sabbath, having been mistaken from the earliest times for the weekly sabbath, has led to all the confusion.

    TWO Sabbaths – first an annual Holy Day and then the regular weekly Sabbath – are mentioned in the Gospel accounts. Compare Mark 16.1 with Luke 23.56

    Annual Sabbath begins at sunset.
    Sunset at this time of year in Jerusalem, is about 6:30 to 7:00 PM.

    The 15th of Nisan is the first Holy Day, high-day, or annual Sabbath of the 7-day festival of Unleavened Bread. It begins at sunset on the 14th.

    The annual Sabbath ends at sunset.

    Mark 16:1 tells us, "And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene and Mary (the mother of James and Salome), bought sweet spices that they might come and anoint Him." (The Thursday, Nison 15 Annual Sabbath High Day).

    Luke's account also describes how the women "prepared the spices and ointments" and then they "rested on the Sabbath day according to the commandment." (Luke 23.56) (The Saturday, Nison 17 Weekly Sabbath).

    Thus, according to these two accounts,
    they bought the spices and prepared them
    after the Sabbath and yet before the Sabbath.

    There had to be two Sabbaths involved here
    with a day of preparation between them.

    FRIDAY
    Nisan 16

    With the annual Sabbath now over,
    the women bought and prepared spices for anointing Jesus' body.

    On Friday, Nison 16, after The Annual Sabbath High Day, Thursday, Nison 15;
    Mark 16:1 tells us, "And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene and Mary (the mother of James and Salome), bought sweet spices that they might come and anoint Him."

    SATURDAY
    Nisan 17

    The weekly Sabbath.
    The women rested on the weekly Sabbath.

    Then, the weekly Sabbath, Nison 17, begins at sunset Friday night,
    No work is to be done as commanded in the fourth commandment.

    Before the Weekly Sabbath:
    Luke's account also describes how the women "prepared the spices and ointments" and then they "rested on the Sabbath day according to the commandment." (Luke 23.56)

    (Again, they rested Saturday, Nison 17 Weekly Sabbath).

    Jesus rose around sunset, exactly three days and three nights (72 hours)
    after burial, to fulfill the sign of Jonah and authenticate Jesus' messiahship.

    Jesus' promise was fulfilled exactly as he said it would.
    He said that, like the prophet Jonah,
    He would be entombed three days and three nights
    and that then He would be raised up from the dead the third day
    after His crucifixion and death (Matthew 12.39-40; 17.23; 20.19).

    There has been a difficulty as to the Lord's statement that "even as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights" (Matt. 12:40).

    Since, while it is quite correct to speak according to Hebrew idiom of "three days" or "three years", while they are only parts of three days or three years, yet that idiom does not apply in a case like this, where "three nights" are mentioned in addition to "three days".

    It will be noted that the Lord not only definitely states this,
    but repeats the full phraseology, so that we may not mistake it.

    The weekly Sabbath ends at sunset Saturday night.

    SUNDAY
    Nisan 18

    Jesus' resurrection had already taken place
    by the time Mary Magdalene arrived at dawn Sunday morning. (John 20.1-2)

    The women brought the prepared spices early in the morning
    while it was still dark.

    In Matthew's account he states that "In the end of [or after] the Sabbath(s),
    as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week"
    they came to see the sepulchre (Mt. 28.1)

    The original Greek word used here for Sabbath
    is actually plural and should be translated "Sabbaths."

    When they arrived they found that Jesus had already arisen.


    We have therefore the following facts furnished for our sure guidance :

    1. The "high day" of John 19:31 was the first day of the feast.

    2. The "first day of the feast" was on the 15th day of Nisan.

    3. The 15th day of Nisan, commenced at sunset
    on what we would call the evening of our Wednesday, the 14th.

    4. "Six days before the passover" (John 12:1)
    takes us back to the 9th day of Nisan.

    5. "After two days is the passover" (Matt. 26:2. Mark 14:1)
    takes us to the 13th day of Nisan.

    6. "The first day of the week", the day of the resurrection (Matt. 28:1, &c.),
    was from our Saturday sunset to our Sunday sunset.

    This fixes the days of the week,
    just as the above fixes the days of the month, for:

    7. Reckoning back from this, "three days and three nights" (Matt. 12:40),
    we arrive at the day of the burial, which must have been before sunset,
    on the 14th of Nisan; i.e. before our Wednesday sunset.

    8. This makes the sixth day before the passover (the 9th day of Nisan)
    to be our Thursday sunset to Friday sunset.

    Therefore Wednesday, Nisan 14th (commencing on the Tuesday at sunset),
    was "the preparation day", on which the crucifixion took place:

    for all four Gospels definitely say that this was the day
    on which the Lord was buried (before our Wednesday sunset),
    "because it was the preparation [day]"

    the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day,
    "for that sabbath day was a high day",
    and, therefore, not the ordinary seventh day, or weekly sabbath.
    See John 19:31.

    see: The Chronology of Christ's Crucifixion & Resurrection.




    .
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,848
    Likes Received:
    1,365
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What meal? The next Jewish day/date begins at sundown.
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Passover was eaten at sundown prior to the morning of 14 Nisan.

    The afternoon before the meal the priests performed tge ceremony at the Temple

    Before that they sacrificed tge pasdover.

    Before that they killed tge Passover.
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Passover was eaten at sundown prior to the morning of 14 Nisan.

    The afternoon before the meal the priests performed the ceremony at the Temple

    Before that they sacrificed the passover.

    Before that they killed the Passover.


    And, of course, by the 1st Century the Jews had abandoned the Biblical calendar (they used observation and reckoning). So it is impossible to know exactly what you think must be known.

    We can know that Jesus was not killed on 15 or 21 Nisan, and not on a Sabbath.

    We can know that Jesus went towards the upper room on the first day of unleavened bread while the Passover was being killed.

    We can know that the passover was killed between 1 and 3 pm prior to the morning of Nisan 14.

    So we have clues, but we can't know the year as a fact because we do not know the observation.
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,848
    Likes Received:
    1,365
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Were in God's word?
    Were in God's word?
    Before the afernoon?
    Before the afternoon?
    Not according to Mark 14:12-17.
    . . . And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him. And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us. And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. . . .
     
    • Prayers Prayers x 1
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,848
    Likes Received:
    1,365
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I believe the Bible. Not your explanation.
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @37818

    You and I hold different interpretations.

    If I can provide at least 3 passages stating that 15 Nisan was a day of holy convocation, that no work (like arresting Jesus, bring Him to trial, burying Him) was allowed then woukd you reconsider your idea?
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I do not understand your complaint.

    It is a fact that the Jews called the entire holiday (from killing the pasdover through the 21st) as unleavened bread.

    I know technically the 1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread was Nisan 15. But that isn't what we are discussing. We are talking about the 1st Century.

    It is a fact that the Jews killed the passover between 1 and 3 pm on the afternoon before the morning of Nisan 14.

    I can't get your counting out of what we know of 1st Century Jewish practice.
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,848
    Likes Received:
    1,365
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Source text?
    Source text?

    I have Mark 14:12, Exodus 12:18, confirmed by Deuteronomy 16:8. And good science and it's math, new Moon to new Moon, is known to be 29.5305877315 days. Which is more accurate than what Sir Isaac Newton had to calculate a Friday crucifixion, Julian date April 3, 33 A.D., 3793 Nisan 14th. Calendar Converter
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,848
    Likes Received:
    1,365
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I had. You did not understand it.

    Joseph of Arimathaea being a devout Jew had to wait until that holy convocation had ended to receive the body of Jesus. Per Mark 15:42-43.
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are posting from Scripture, but prior to the changes in Jewish practices.

    Here is one source text:

    About the Hebrew Calendar | Yale University Library.
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You had reconsidered it?

    I do not understand how you don't see the problem.

    You say the 1st Century Jews legalistically observed the instructions in the Law when it cones to times but at the same time ignored the instructions in the Law when it comes to 15 Nisan.

    What I look at is the days (I typically count back and keep in mind that the day was before a Sabbath which was also a high day).

    I can't seem to make your timing work. But to each his own.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  21. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,848
    Likes Received:
    1,365
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No. Else I pushed to have to deny both Scripture and that there could even be an actual historical crucifixion. I cannot and will not do that!

    As it is, Mark 14:12 being the 14th or even the 15th (NIV) makes a 14th Nisan crucifixion Biblically impossible.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...